Sports in Canadian culture

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

I mean, as SHH has illustrated on numerous occasions, St. John's can be qualitatively said to be without question the major cultural driving force for a part of Canada. Should we include them in the discussion? Come on.

Well, I have lots of respect and sympathy for SHH and NL culture, but I doubt he would say that St. John's influence largely eclipses Toronto's influence as the Anglo-Canadian culture centre. I mean, the national news in NL comes from TO, as do the sports channels, the music channels, book chains, movie distribution companies, etc. Many of its stars go to Toronto to ''make it''. SJ has a strong local culture, but I would surmise the mindspace is shared between SJ, TO and a number of other places (NYC-LA, Dublin, etc.)

For all of this, Quebec OTOH has its own stuff, based out of Montreal.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Jesus Christ, a complete lack of logic with this one. With most forumers, we make a post and they "get" what we're saying whether they agree or not, at most one additional post is needed to clarify any ambiguity. But some people (usually trolls, or in this case...someone that's just plain incapable of logic) just doesn't "get" simple things no matter how many ways or how many times it's explained to them. Exasperating and a total time drain.

Going by the quantitative logic, then, basically all of the top Canadian TV shows of all time have been produced in French. You can't argue with ratings, can you?

Not so self-evident, logical and self-serving any more, is it?

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Going by the quantitative logic, then, basically all of the top Canadian TV shows of all time have been produced in French. You can't argue with ratings, can you?

Not so self-evident, logical and self-serving any more, is it?

Anglo-Canadian TV shows and movies are seen by many millions more people around the world. They don't all need to broadcast their Canadianness with references to the city and nationality every chance they get when keeping references somewhat neutral can add millions to the bottom line.

Unlike most of the substandard shows made in Quebec that the local unilingual crowd are forcefed and the others in the province are exposed to, Anglo-Canadian shows have a wider potential audience and thus don't have to amp up the provincialism to get support.

Anyway man, I'm through responding to your flame baiting, you're stuck in a franco-centric bubble and you can't see the world for what it is, neither do you fully grasp how incredibly biased you are. There's nothing objective about your views or how you express them.

Back to sports...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Anglo-Canadian TV shows and movies are seen by many millions more people around the world. They don't all need to broadcast their Canadianness with references to the city and nationality every chance they get when keeping references somewhat neutral can add millions to the bottom line.

Unlike most of the substandard shows made in Quebec that the local unilingual crowd are forcefed and the others in the province are exposed to, Anglo-Canadian shows have a wider potential audience and thus don't have to amp up the provincialism to get support.

Anyway man, I'm through responding to your flame baiting, you're stuck in a franco-centric bubble and you can't see the world for what it is, neither do you fully grasp how incredibly biased you are. There's nothing objective about your views or how you express them.

Back to sports...

Quoting this for the record. Just in case you decide to edit it!

[rousseau]

Seems like both sides of the "Toronto argument" are going to nutty extremes of vitriol here, but let's get serious. Never mind that Canada is uniquely positioned right next door to a cultural juggernaut speaking the same language, making it virtually impossible for a powerfully distinctive and inward-looking culture to develop; just the fact that this very conversation is taking place is proof positive that Toronto is not a national alpha city for culture in the way that London, Paris, Seoul, Tokyo etc. are.

This conversation right here is impossible in every other country in the world.

And this is why Toronto is a dark horse, and why "Toronto" appears in the dictionary next to the word "quirky." You don't see it coming, and you don't know anything about it, and then your first night there, somewhere on Queen West, you turn to your Toronto friend and say "Holy fuck, I had no idea!"

This is what a friend from Saskatchewan once said to me. I think he'd been expecting something in the order of a "much larger Saskatoon," with maybe a few more hot dog carts along a section of a street with perhaps a few more bars than what you'd find in that city in Saskatchewan. He was completely unprepared for the crowds, the heft, the hum. I took him to a street festival in Little India and he just about crapped his pants.

You generally know what to expect in New York, and expect to be awed, but Toronto is unique in that Canadian visitors are almost as unaware of its various urban aspects as foreign visitors are.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Unlike most of the substandard shows made in Quebec that the local unilingual crowd are forcefed and the others in the province are exposed to, Anglo-Canadian shows have a wider potential audience and thus don't have to amp up the provincialism to get support.

This is just empty posturing and rather insulting. It's beyond argument that Quebec has a stronger indigenous culture than Anglo Canada does. And it's rather pathetic that many Anglo-Canadian shows reaching a global audience are intentionally ambiguous about their Canadianness, i.e. they trade on their similarity to America because the world is already accustomed to watching American things.

You and I both disagree with Acajack about the value or interest of English Canada's lack of a strong, distinctive identity, but where you seem to have convinced yourself that it's some kind of inherent virtue, I simply see it as inevitable.

[Nicko999]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Realistically, aside from a handful of francophone countries, Toronto is pretty much the only city the vast majority of people overseas would have even heard of along with random attractions like Niagara Falls.

Rio has far more cache than Sao Paulo and is the cultural capital of Brazil. Toronto, is both a cultural and business capital of this country by all relevant metrics. The Golden Horseshoe also has double the population of Greater Montreal and the gap is widening, case closed. No offense intended but it is what it is.

I won't argue much as I do believe Toronto is the cultural center in this country (although it's nothing to brag about, our culture is Americanized) but the bolded part shows your bias. How about you compare apples to apples? The greater Toronto area is 6M. The greater Montreal area is 4M. That's not double the population.

[tremblay]

Whether francophones are tuned in to Toronto or not, it's pretty clear to me the city is the cultural hub of Canada and that its role as such will only get bigger as its sole rival, Montreal, will continue to lose grounds given the demographics.

The Toronto/Montreal debate appears to me as a manifestation of Quebec losing relevance -demographically, politically, culturally- in the Canadian perspective. This will get interesting as for the entire history of Canada so far, one could not talk of Canada without being completely oblivious to Quebec. I believe we're reaching the threshold in this decade (politically we've already seen it in the 2011 elections and we'll probably see it again this fall) where the importance of Quebec in Canada goes from fundamental to being a regionalism.

English Canada is currently striving not to be one of the two founding Canadian cultures -in a federalist spirit, what acajack would prefer-, but to be the only mainstream Canadian culture - mistercorporate's point of view - where Quebec culture is a regional one just like aboriginal cultures, acadian culture to which the same thing happened some time ago.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by tremblay

English Canada is currently striving not to be one of the two founding Canadian cultures -in a federalist spirit, what acajack would prefer-, but to be the only mainstream Canadian culture - mistercorporate's point of view - where Quebec culture is a regional one just like aboriginal cultures, acadian culture to which the same thing happened some time ago.

It's clearly not politically correct to say it, but this is where things are headed... if they aren't there already.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Seems like both sides of the "Toronto argument" are going to nutty extremes of vitriol here, but let's get serious. .

I am actually holding back here and being nice, out of respect for certain posters on here and the anglophone Canadians I have worked with over the years at the Canada Council on the Arts, the NFB, CRTC, Association of Canadian Broadcasters, Telefilm, etc.

I mean, I didn't even bring up Porky's, did I?

[niwell]

Don't want to beat a dead horse here as it's gotten ridiculous (on both sides to an equal extend IMO) so will leave it at saying that I agree with most of what Esquire, Rousseau and Mister F have said over the past few pages.

However one interesting cultural export from Toronto to the hinterland of note, that hugely influenced myself and my peer group in western Canada was Muchmusic. The channel is sadly not the same today, but growing up everyone knew the Muchmusic (Citytv) building was on Queen W. That seemed like THE cool place to be in Canada, and it was very clearly a Toronto institution. If you went on vacation to Toronto you'd want to check it out, and also try and get in the speaker's corner booth.

This does play up to music being one area where Toronto does shine, culturally.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

This is just empty posturing and rather insulting. It's beyond argument that Quebec has a stronger indigenous culture than Anglo Canada does. And it's rather pathetic that many Anglo-Canadian shows reaching a global audience are intentionally ambiguous about their Canadianness, i.e. they trade on their similarity to America because the world is already accustomed to watching American things.

You and I both disagree with Acajack about the value or interest of English Canada's lack of a strong, distinctive identity, but where you seem to have convinced yourself that it's some kind of inherent virtue, I simply see it as inevitable.

Actually, mistercorporate doesn't think that English Canada lacks a strong, distinctive identity. Based on his posts he definitely thinks it has one and probably feels it's every bit as strong, unique and pervasive as most national identities in the world. He certainly think it's superior in all respects to the French Canadian one. (Well, does he even recognize that the French Canadian one exists?)

As for you, well I think I am closer to you on this than you realize. I realize that it's kind of difficult for you guys to distinguish yourself, what with the big huge guys next door. I'd also tend to agree that it's probably not that big a deal in the final analysis, and also that at least part of my mantra about "English Canada being the world's most successful diverse society" is in some way related to this cultural looseness that you guys have.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by tremblay

Whether francophones are tuned in to Toronto or not, it's pretty clear to me the city is the cultural hub of Canada and that its role as such will only get bigger as its sole rival, Montreal, will continue to lose grounds given the demographics.

The Toronto/Montreal debate appears to me as a manifestation of Quebec losing relevance -demographically, politically, culturally- in the Canadian perspective. This will get interesting as for the entire history of Canada so far, one could not talk of Canada without being completely oblivious to Quebec. I believe we're reaching the threshold in this decade (politically we've already seen it in the 2011 elections and we'll probably see it again this fall) where the importance of Quebec in Canada goes from fundamental to being a regionalism.

English Canada is currently striving not to be one of the two founding Canadian cultures -in a federalist spirit, what acajack would prefer-, but to be the only mainstream Canadian culture - mistercorporate's point of view - where Quebec culture is a regional one just like aboriginal cultures, acadian culture to which the same thing happened some time ago.

Now this is an interesting post. I definitely agree with you and esquire that there is a strong leaning towards this in Toronto/English Canada. How far along it is at this point could be a matter of debate, but the writing is definitely on the wall.

The "duality" model for Canada has a big target on its back at the moment.

I don't know where this will lead us (although for Tremblay, I am pretty sure I know what you think, based on some previous posts), but we could likely be on a collision course at some point in the near future over all of this.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As for you, well I think I am closer to you on this than you realize. I realize that it's kind of difficult for you guys to distinguish yourself, what with the big huge guys next door. I'd also tend to agree that it's probably not that big a deal in the final analysis, and also that at least part of my mantra about "English Canada being the world's most successful diverse society" is in some way related to this cultural looseness that you guys have.

I don't know why English Canadian culture needs to be judged by the measure of how distinctive it is from US culture. If you're trying to assess which city is a country's cultural hub, you don't go for the city that has the most distinctive scene.

In determining Canada's cultural capital, Toronto's competitors aren't New York, Hollywood and London. It's up against Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa, Halifax, St. John's, Edmonton and Winnipeg. In other words, other Canadian cities. And it's pretty clear which city among those is the cultural leader.

[tremblay]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't know where this will lead us (although for Tremblay, I am pretty sure I know what you think, based on some previous posts), but we could likely be on a collision course at some point in the near future over all of this.

Correct. And it's the prime reason of why I advocate separation of Quebec. It's nothing new; the late Jane Jacobs predicted the same thing using this Montreal/Toronto relation in the 1970s.

It boils down to 2 choices for Quebec: keep on bowing down and accepting the fate of gradually losing any relevance, being marginalized, within Canada or separating altogether and gaining control of all institutions at once. And as time goes on, quebec federalists will have to defend harder and harder why bowing down is the best thing to do -backed up by an indifferent Canada.

[Mister F]

^Come on, Quebec isn't marginalized, it's very much the master of its own affairs within a pretty decentralized federation. Who cares if it's not as influential nationally as it once was? Bowing down? Really?

Originally Posted by Acajack

For all of this, Quebec OTOH has its own stuff, based out of Montreal.

I'm not sure why you keep repeating this as a counterpoint to people's posts. Nobody is disagreeing with you, and Montreal being the centre of Quebec culture doesn't contradict anything that's being said.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by tremblay

Correct. And it's the prime reason of why I advocate separation of Quebec. It's nothing new; the late Jane Jacobs predicted the same thing using this Montreal/Toronto relation in the 1970s.

It boils down to 2 choices for Quebec: keep on bowing down and accepting the fate of gradually losing any relevance, being marginalized, within Canada or separating altogether and gaining control of all institutions at once. And as time goes on, quebec federalists will have to defend harder and harder why bowing down is the best thing to do -backed up by an indifferent Canada.

The funny thing about your scenario is that it will be pretty much business as usual in Quebec... Montreal will continue to be the business/cultural/education hub for Quebec as it has been for about the last 400 years or so. Nothing will change in that regard.

Yet somehow the thought that under current demographic trends, Quebec is poised to no longer going to be a big fish in the Canadian pond is so unbearable that the only response will be to separate?

But you are probably right about the indifference growing within Canada. At one time, Quebec separation would have been perceived as something analogous to losing some critical internal organs... the continued existence of the nation itself would have been threatened. Now it would be regarded maybe along the lines of losing one's hand. An inconvenience for sure, but by no means something that couldn't be overcome.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Mister F

I'm not sure why you keep repeating this as a counterpoint to people's posts. Nobody is disagreeing with you, and Montreal being the centre of Quebec culture doesn't contradict anything that's being said.

Because it's an important distinction to make when someone brings up "Yeah, but... Newfoundland too!", as a counter-argument...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

I don't know why English Canadian culture needs to be judged by the measure of how distinctive it is from US culture. If you're trying to assess which city is a country's cultural hub, you don't go for the city that has the most distinctive scene.

In determining Canada's cultural capital, Toronto's competitors aren't New York, Hollywood and London. It's up against Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa, Halifax, St. John's, Edmonton and Winnipeg. In other words, other Canadian cities. And it's pretty clear which city among those is the cultural leader.

I don't really understand this line of thinking.

You don't think have a distinctive unique scene is at least part of it?

It's the difference between being a car jockey for a rich guy who owns a half dozen luxury vehicles, and having just two luxury vehicles in your garage, but owning them youself.

Why should the car jockey look down on the other guy just because he's driving around his boss' cars that he himself doesn't even own?

[esquire]

Let's turn this around for a moment.

So Acajack, are you seriously suggesting that Montreal's proficiency at catering to the 1/5 of Canada's population that is Francophone somehow gives it a claim to being Canada's true cultural capital despite being blown away by Toronto in every conceivable metric that doesn't start with "French language"?