Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by le calmar

Personally, I find it hard to believe the police officer didn’t speak any English. Limited proficiency in English is more likely.

It's also quite possible he just wanted to be a dick.

[JHikka]

Nearly got a bingo on my SSP Bingo Card with this one

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/gender-n...tral-1.5259027

Gender nonconforming French Canadians hit roadblocks as they seek to make language more gender-neutral

"MONTREAL -- Gender nonconforming French-Canadians are finding ways to make their language more gender-neutral. They created the word 'iel' - a relatively common gender-neutral option to il (he) and elle (her).

But an added challenge is that French nouns are also gendered -- for example, the sun is masculine and a chair is feminine.

Aimé Majeau Beauchamp is trans non-binary; meaning they are neither male nor female.

In English, their pronoun is they and in French, iel.

Beauchamp said it was easier for them to come out as non-binary in English.

“I don’t think that I would have come out as fast if I would have stayed in Montreal,” said Beauchamp from their Toronto apartment. “When you live outside of Quebec you can choose to live your life in English if you want… but it costs a lot to lose a part of your culture and history.”

It’s a common experience among non-binary French-Canadians. Many leave their roots and turn to English as a safer passage into their new identity.

The switch to English is two-fold: First off, the language is much less gendered than French. The use of the singular “they” as a gender-neutral pronoun dates back hundreds of years.

“For example, in one sentence in French, I can have three or four gendered nouns or endings,” said Beauchamp.

Secondly, work has already been done to neutralize gendered words. Fireman is now firefighter, stewardess is now flight attendant, chairman is now chairperson. And several other provinces and territories have an optional third gender marker on drivers' licences and health cards - allowing non-binary people to be referred to correctly when accessing provincial services.

This isn’t an option in Quebec.

But French-speaking non-binary people are finding ways to work around their very gendered language.

...

They say within the LGBTQ+ community (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, questioning, intersex, pansexual, two-spirit, asexual) the language is already changing.

But they say some Quebecers don’t want to see their language modernized at all.

“People who are conservative about the language are just killing the language,” said Benali. “They’re not the solution, they’re the problem.”

While the movement to modernize the language is strong, so is the resistance. The top authority on the French language in Quebec, the Office Quebecois de la Language Francaise (OQLF), said it doesn’t recognize the use of iel as a gender-neutral pronoun. In fact, it doesn’t support adding new words to the language at all. Rather, it suggests people avoid using gender-specific words when speaking.

And in writing, it suggests using both the masculine and feminine endings together. For example, the words professeur and professeure would be written like this: professeur.e, and the words acteur and actrice like this: acteur.rice."

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Nearly got a bingo on my SSP Bingo Card with this one
]

Well, that CTV reporter certainly won the full card jackpot in the Montreal Anglo Media Bingo with these quotes!

It’s a common experience among non-binary French-Canadians. Many leave their roots and turn to English as a safer passage into their new identity.

And people will continue having to choose between their French roots and their gender identity.

Ding ding ding baby!

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Nearly got a bingo on my SSP Bingo Card with this one

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/gender-n...tral-1.5259027

Gender nonconforming French Canadians hit roadblocks as they seek to make language more gender-neutral

"MONTREAL -- Gender nonconforming French-Canadians are finding ways to make their language more gender-neutral. They created the word 'iel' - a relatively common gender-neutral option to il (he) and elle (her).

But an added challenge is that French nouns are also gendered -- for example, the sun is masculine and a chair is feminine.

Aimé Majeau Beauchamp is trans non-binary; meaning they are neither male nor female.

In English, their pronoun is they and in French, iel.

Beauchamp said it was easier for them to come out as non-binary in English.

“I don’t think that I would have come out as fast if I would have stayed in Montreal,” said Beauchamp from their Toronto apartment. “When you live outside of Quebec you can choose to live your life in English if you want… but it costs a lot to lose a part of your culture and history.”

It’s a common experience among non-binary French-Canadians. Many leave their roots and turn to English as a safer passage into their new identity.

The switch to English is two-fold: First off, the language is much less gendered than French. The use of the singular “they” as a gender-neutral pronoun dates back hundreds of years.

“For example, in one sentence in French, I can have three or four gendered nouns or endings,” said Beauchamp.

Secondly, work has already been done to neutralize gendered words. Fireman is now firefighter, stewardess is now flight attendant, chairman is now chairperson. And several other provinces and territories have an optional third gender marker on drivers' licences and health cards - allowing non-binary people to be referred to correctly when accessing provincial services.

This isn’t an option in Quebec.

But French-speaking non-binary people are finding ways to work around their very gendered language.

...

They say within the LGBTQ+ community (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, questioning, intersex, pansexual, two-spirit, asexual) the language is already changing.

But they say some Quebecers don’t want to see their language modernized at all.

“People who are conservative about the language are just killing the language,” said Benali. “They’re not the solution, they’re the problem.”

While the movement to modernize the language is strong, so is the resistance. The top authority on the French language in Quebec, the Office Quebecois de la Language Francaise (OQLF), said it doesn’t recognize the use of iel as a gender-neutral pronoun. In fact, it doesn’t support adding new words to the language at all. Rather, it suggests people avoid using gender-specific words when speaking.

And in writing, it suggests using both the masculine and feminine endings together. For example, the words professeur and professeure would be written like this: professeur.e, and the words acteur and actrice like this: acteur.rice."

Iel est Québecoix ...

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Iel est Québecoix ...

Quebecois.e

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Quebecois.e

Far too binary ...

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

"It’s a common experience among non-binary French-Canadians. Many leave their roots and turn to English as a safer passage into their new identity.

And people will continue having to choose between their French roots and their gender identity."

It is a point of honour with us anglo-Canadians that we are able to protect people from the violence of the French language. Providing a safe haven for those threatened by the gendered cruelty of French is just one of the many virtues we offer to those who suffer so terribly in Quebec.

And don't worry, we've already done our homework when it comes to the other romance languages as well. There's no need to fear being assaulted by gendered nouns and adjectives when walking the streets of Little Italy or Little Portugal, as we've totally cracked down on the unspeakably archaic brutality of those linguistic communities that was so cavalierly accepted in the past.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

It is a point of honour with us anglo-Canadians that we are able to protect people from the violence of the French language. Providing a safe haven for those threatened by the gendered cruelty of French is just one of the many virtues we offer to those who suffer so terribly in Quebec.

And don't worry, we've already done our homework when it comes to the other romance languages as well. There's no need to fear being assaulted by gendered nouns and adjectives when walking the streets of Little Italy or Little Portugal, as we've totally cracked down on the unspeakably archaic brutality of those linguistic communities that was so cavalierly accepted in the past.

LOL

Funnily enough, Quebec is actually the trend-setter in terms of feminizing (at least in the binary sense) of job descriptions and titles. I am pretty sure the French find us a bit PC and even "North American" or "Anglo-Saxon influenced" in this sense, but they've gotten used to it though (we've been at it since the 70s), and have even started to follow our lead.

So while the feminine of Directeur, Directrice, has been around here forever and no one would use anything else, in France it's still a mix.

And even today you still see women in France addressed a "Madame le Directeur".

During the pandemic I've seen on the news women referred to as "Madame le Directeur exécutif de la santé publique".

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yesterday I was driving around Gatineau and on the highways there were electronic variable message signs flashing details about the curfew and other stuff. It was only in French and I know for a fact they're not typically bilingual in the Montreal area either.

I know I told that one already here but a few summers ago, on the 20 west of Lévis (which is also the TCH and the path for Yankee and Ontario tourists to go to Quebec City) there was construction work and a Y split/branching ahead electronic signs saying in French only that both lanes end up going to the same place in a few km anyway, and I couldn't help but think an American tourist would be "wtf, where do I go? there's a Y ahead and I have no clue which branch is the continuation of the freeway I'm on"

(and they'd be correct. I found that to be quite unsympathetic; it's not local road signs, it's a major freeway, used by foreigners who come spend their money here. If I were in charge, that one would have been bilingual.)

In Gatineau during Covid I'm absolutely fine with them being unilingual though. If you can't understand, it's your problem.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

I know I told that one already here but a few summers ago, on the 20 west of Lévis (which is also the TCH and the path for Yankee and Ontario tourists to go to Quebec City) there was construction work and a Y split/branching ahead electronic signs saying in French only that both lanes end up going to the same place in a few km anyway, and I couldn't help but think an American tourist would be "wtf, where do I go? there's a Y ahead and I have no clue which branch is the continuation of the freeway I'm on"

(and they'd be correct. I found that to be quite unsympathetic; it's not local road signs, it's a major freeway, used by foreigners who come spend their money here. If I were in charge, that one would have been bilingual.)
.

Personally, I find that type of thing actually adds to the charm of travelling in a foreign place. But that's just me.

I get that it could be unsettling to some.

Pictograms can go a long way in helping with such situations,.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Pictograms can go a long way in helping with such situations,.

Yeah, that kinda was my point - I would have expected at least a sign showing two arrows splitting then merging into something that has the number 20 in it's blue shield. But instead, and that's a rarity, the only actual indications were in written French, anyone not understanding that had no way to know what was happening except that the freeway you're driving on is about to physically split in two.

Pictogram + instructions in French only would have been perfectly okay.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by lio45

Yeah, that kinda was my point - I would have expected at least a sign showing two arrows splitting then merging into something that has the number 20 in it's blue shield. But instead, and that's a rarity, the only actual indications were in written French, anyone not understanding that had no way to know what was happening except that the freeway you're driving on is about to physically split in two.

Pictogram + instructions in French only would have been perfectly okay.

"Today we're going to Quebec Ci... Never mind we're going to Halifax instead."

[someone123]

Originally Posted by rousseau

It is a point of honour with us anglo-Canadians that we are able to protect people from the violence of the French language. Providing a safe haven for those threatened by the gendered cruelty of French is just one of the many virtues we offer to those who suffer so terribly in Quebec.

Those articles grate on me since they tend to be filled with bad logic. For example saying "la chaise" does not imply that the chair feels feminine or has female body parts. It's just idiomatic.

English uses gendered possessives while French does not. So "his chair" is more gendered (according to the gender of a human) than "sa chaise" (does not imply that it's a female's chair).

Similarly "ils" is not specifically a group of males. It is a lot closer to "they" than the article suggests.

The biggest/worst trope is that any French place has some bureaucracy that tells people how to speak, like L'Académie française. This would be like if French newspapers ran stories about how the Oxford English Dictionary people control speech around the UK. Generally speaking, in Francophone or Anglophone countries, the official language stuff follows the real world, not the other way around.

Other false tropes are that Quebec French was trapped in amber in the 1600's and that Quebec and France French are mutually unintelligible (and Bob learned Parisian French in Grade 5, so that's why he has trouble speaking to people in Quebec).

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by someone123

English uses gendered possessives while French does not. So "his chair" is more gendered (according to the gender of a human) than "sa chaise" (does not imply that it's a female's chair).

That's a very good point. Looks like this gendered violence goes even deeper than I thought.

I'm going to face up to my privilege and stop the linguistic bloodshed. From now on it'll be "ziser chair" and "sona chaise" for the third person. For definitive articles in French I'll say "lae," which will be somewhat distinctive from "les" in the plural.

Don't worry, I'll educate you on how to pronounce them properly. Let's all do our part to prevent anymore harm to people who, let's remember, were born in this society without ever being asked whether they wanted gender-specific language.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

"Today we're going to Quebec Ci... Never mind we're going to Halifax instead."

Actually it would have been "today we're going to Quebec Ci... well shit we're not sure where we're going anymore... (and a few minutes later) oh well it turns out we're still going to Quebec City"

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is a COVID story but part of it fits here, as this is basically our ''language" thread these days.

File this under the discussion: "there is no practical disadvantage to living in Quebec while knowing no French, right?".

Calhoun said she doesn’t speak French, and her husband is not fluent, and wondered if the language barrier contributed to the ticket. She said the officer did not speak English.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7567308/w...ed-exceptions/

Yup, just like living in Ontario folks... until this happens.

BTW this actually happened in the inner suburbs of Montreal, not in the Bas-St-Laurent.

I'm quite confident that the fine will be dropped for them both. They have evidence and documentation from the Government of New Brunswick. They proved that they followed the rules there and assuming they have clean records they will be viewed favourably. Also, I don't think that they were out to go to a big party or do non-essential things with their young children in the car. Interesting that the police officer was that eager and willing to issue a fine. The language thing could definitely have created a bias.

Where I live, people often go to see the Justice of the Peace and explain the situation and the ticket gets dropped or the fine reduced if the person contesting explains well why he/she thinks the fine is unreasonable. The police officer has to show up if the tickets are challenged in court. I wouldn't at all be surprised if the officer is a no-show for them.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I'm quite confident that the fine will be dropped for them both. They have evidence and documentation from the Government of New Brunswick. They proved that they followed the rules there and assuming they have clean records they will be viewed favourably. Also, I don't think that they were out to go to a big party or do non-essential things with their young children in the car. Interesting that the police officer was that eager and willing to issue a fine. The language thing could definitely have created a bias.

Where I live, people often go to see the Justice of the Peace and explain the situation and the ticket gets dropped or the fine reduced if the person contesting explains well why he/she thinks the fine is unreasonable. The police officer has to show up if the tickets are challenged in court. I wouldn't at all be surprised if the officer is a no-show for them.

Especially if the whole thing was potentially based on a misunderstanding and lost in the translation.

In my experience cops often don't show for ticket trials especially if it's in the "other" language.

In the rare instances I've gotten tickets in Ontario, I always challenge and ask for a trial in French, and the cop has never showed up. So it got thrown out.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Especially if the whole thing was potentially based on a misunderstanding and lost in the translation.

In my experience cops often don't show for ticket trials especially if it's in the "other" language.

In the rare instances I've gotten tickets in Ontario, I always challenge and ask for a trial in French, and the cop has never showed up. So it got thrown out.

Yeah, I know people here who have done the same thing asking for a trial in French in regions of Ontario with very few francophones and it worked. It won't work in Timmins or any other communities with a large francophone presence. But whatever language you choose, there's a fair chance that the cop won't show up unless it's a major infraction.

[lio45]

You guys are lucky. In Sherbrooke the cop always shows and the judge (in municipal court) always rules in favor of the City, whatever the matter is.

Now I'm wondering if demanding a trial in English 1) would be a possibility (not sure at all that is it, Quebec's officially unilingual) and 2) would work to reduce the chances of cop showing up and/or get me a Montreal/West Island judge that isn't on the City's payroll.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by lio45

You guys are lucky. In Sherbrooke the cop always shows and the judge (in municipal court) always rules in favor of the City, whatever the matter is.

Now I'm wondering if demanding a trial in English 1) would be a possibility (not sure at all that is it, Quebec's officially unilingual) and 2) would work to reduce the chances of cop showing up and/or get me a Montreal/West Island judge that isn't on the City's payroll.

English and French are considered official languages in the courts of Ontario and Quebec. So you could give it a try!