US equivalents of Calgary?

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

From a density , population , built form excluding the Cbd point of view , Calgary and Salt Lake City (not the entire metro , the circular salt lake urban area excluding Provo , Orem etc) are quite comparable

Denver is a good comparison but it’s older , with a lot more 19th century housing stock

Austin is a good comparison as well

Salt Lake City is an interesting comparison due to the geographic proximity, similar size, and Olympic legacies. However, there are some pretty stark differences. As you noted, the two CBDs are not comparable.

There also does not appear to be any neighborhood in Salt Lake City which is at all comparable to the Beltline in Calgary (~25,000 people in ~2 square km):

https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.04117...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.03792...7i13312!8i6656

There are also significant differences in overall population density. Salt Lake City metro has 153 people/square mile. Calgary metro has 706 people/square mile. I acknowledge that drawing metro areas is an inexact science, but that is a stark difference.

Unsurprisingly, transit usage in the two cities is also very different (~17% mode share in Calgary compared to ~2% in Salt Lake City).

I did a quick Streetview tour of Salt Lake City's inner city neighborhoods using a couple of "best restaurants" lists as my rough guide (so, Sugar House, the Avenues, 9th and 9th). It was, admittedly, cursory and I'm sure I missed some (if anyone can point me to areas that I missed, I'd appreciate it).

Anyway, the SLC neighborhoods I looked at appeared very different than similar areas of Calgary:

4th Street SW/Mission:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.03316...7i13312!8i6656

Chinatown:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.05028...7i13312!8i6656

Inglewood:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.04278...7i13312!8i6656

Bridgeland:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.05324...7i13312!8i6656

Kensington:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.05288...7i13312!8i6656

Marda Loop:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.02397...7i13312!8i6656

Overall, the SLC neighborhoods appeared far less dense and urban. However, I will say this: SLC has a real wealth of charming, leafy residential neighborhoods with stately old homes (something Calgary really lacks).

Anyway, sorry for the long post and I hope it didn't come across as overly critical of SLC (which is quite beautiful, especially with the mountain backdrop).

[dc_denizen]

the density difference you cite is a bit misleading though

Salt Lake County (2/3 mountains desert, 1/3 city) density is 1300/sq mile.

same scale, same population

Salt Lake

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sa...4d-111.9522491

Calgary

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ca...4d-114.0718831

The beltline looks great, but the overall density metrics for the urban area are driven more by areas like this which are pretty similar in the two cities

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.0963...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6063...7i13312!8i6656

wouldn't be surprised if larger mormon family sizes come into play here also.

[dc_denizen]

relative to Portland / denver/ seattle/ though, Salt lake seems to lake walkable commercial districts outside of downtown, absent some new urbanism strewn about.

here is one example.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7254...7i16384!8i8192

although calgary doesn't seem to have that much of these either, since most activity appears to be very centralized downtown.

[Pavlov]

^ Yeah, I agree that those metro density stats I referred to aren't very useful. I should have dug a bit deeper.

Here is what wikipedia provides for Calgary density numbers:

Area (2016)[5][6][7]
• Land 825.56 km2 (318.75 sq mi)
• Urban 586.08 km2 (226.29 sq mi)
• Metro 5,110.21 km2 (1,973.06 sq mi)
Elevation[8] 1,045 m (3,428 ft)
Population (2016)[5][6][7]
• City 1,239,220
• Estimate (2019) 1,335,145[10]
• Density 1,501.1/km2 (3,888/sq mi)
• Urban 1,237,656
• Urban density 2,111/km2 (5,470/sq mi)
• Metro 1,392,609 (4th)
• Metro density 272.5/km2 (706/sq mi)
• Municipal census (2019) 1,285,711[9]

And Salt Lake City:

Area[2]
• City 110.81 sq mi (286.99 km2)
• Land 110.34 sq mi (285.77 km2)
• Water 0.47 sq mi (1.22 km2)
Elevation 4,226 ft (1,288 m)
Population (2010)[3]
• City 186,440
• Estimate (2019)[4] 200,567
• Rank US: 114th
UT: 1st
• Density 1,817.75/sq mi (701.84/km2)

I still think Calgary ends up being significantly denser. For example, SLC's city proper is much smaller than Calgary's (which includes almost its entire metro population) and presumably therefore includes the densest parts of the metro but excludes the least dense parts of the metro. Even then, Calgary is much denser (more than double).

EDIT: For what it's worth, that streetview link (to NW Calgary) is representative of a large swath of suburban Calgary.

[niwell]

I still don't really see the SLC comparison except in the broadest sense tbh. It probably looks similar while driving around the suburbs, but the central areas seem very different. Aside from fewer skyscrapers, SLC has a unique street grid stemming from original Mormon settlement that led to huge blocks that are broken up with non-through streets. The leafy central city streets outside the original street grid don't look that similar to Calgary in my eye either (Calgary could use a lot more of them), and haven't been taken over by brand new infill semi-detached and SFHs.

In particular can't think of anything in Calgary like this:

https://goo.gl/maps/UFU9u8rrMsUAZnHL6
https://goo.gl/maps/bgLGhNq5RFW2R89Q6


Calgary is oriented North/South to a greater degree than East/West but not nearly so much as SLC and especially not the Wasatch Front urban area as a whole. SLC's geography resulting in the CBD at what's pretty much at the northern edge of the city is also quite a bit different.

RE: density, family size likely plays into things in suburban areas. For example, this area in Brampton is actually quite dense as around half of these "single family homes" are occupied by more than 5 people: https://goo.gl/maps/qEGTmrUHanymUcaR7

[BillM]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Denver. I think this question has been raised at least 200 times on SSP, and we usually coalesce around the idea that Denver is the closest US comparison city to Calgary.

What about Pittsburgh? The skyline (in the high end) competes fairly well with Denver while having a smaller metro population.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by niwell

I still don't really see the SLC comparison except in the broadest sense tbh. It probably looks similar while driving around the suburbs, but the central areas seem very different. Aside from fewer skyscrapers, SLC has a unique street grid stemming from original Mormon settlement that led to huge blocks that are broken up with non-through streets. The leafy central city streets outside the original street grid don't look that similar to Calgary in my eye either (Calgary could use a lot more of them), and haven't been taken over by brand new infill semi-detached and SFHs.

In particular can't think of anything in Calgary like this:

https://goo.gl/maps/UFU9u8rrMsUAZnHL6
https://goo.gl/maps/bgLGhNq5RFW2R89Q6


Calgary is oriented North/South to a greater degree than East/West but not nearly so much as SLC and especially not the Wasatch Front urban area as a whole. SLC's geography resulting in the CBD at what's pretty much at the northern edge of the city is also quite a bit different.

RE: density, family size likely plays into things in suburban areas. For example, this area in Brampton is actually quite dense as around half of these "single family homes" are occupied by more than 5 people: https://goo.gl/maps/qEGTmrUHanymUcaR7

There are some Calgary neighborhoods which loosely resemble those leafy residential areas in SLC (Bankview, Sunnyside, Hillhurst), but (a) not nearly as many as SLC appears to have; and (b) those neighborhoods are now dominated by single-family (and increasingly) multi-family infill.

I just think SLC and Calgary are two very different cities.

[Atlas]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

I just think SLC and Calgary are two very different cities.

This. For the record, I love SLC but it can't compete with Calgary in terms of urban environment/amenities at this point. It does have a great deal of 19th and early 20th century architecture, mountain views, mature trees, and wonderful public parks. As you say, the walkable areas, such as Sugar House, 9th+9th, and Downtown, are disparate and separated by large, leafy neighborhoods.

It is really changing fast though and the underdeveloped parts of SLC are already unrecognizable compared to 10 years ago (400 S, Granary, Midtown, Depot). The real estate market has really exploded in the past two years, there is construction everywhere, and unlike many other US cities of its size SLC has decent light rail and commuter rail infrastructure in place. Even despite the pandemic, it's really an exciting time for urbanism in SLC. We have 10+ new 20-40 story towers either U/C or proposed/rumored as well as thousands of new apartments and condos (visualization). With our new $4 billion airport, connected to downtown via 10 minute light rail ride, in another decade I think SLC will be a very nice urban experience (just in time to host the Olympics again).

Calgary is just a more mature city at this point, and based on the street views shown above it actually does somewhat remind me of Denver.

[dave8721]

Originally Posted by Stay Stoked Brah

Has anyone calculated the high-rise to population ratio of a 1.4 million region around Miami to the greater Calgary region?

now I'm really interested. I had no idea which area has more high-rises.

Depends how you draw the region. If you made a "region" of the City of Miami and the string of cities up the coast along the ocean you could get 1.4 million people and well over 1000 highrises.

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by Stay Stoked Brah

wow! 1,000 highrises in a region serving a population of 1.4 million.

Which is why there's no US equivalent of Calgary. Canada builds high-rises like a mofo. The US... not so much. There's no US equivalent of Vancouver; there's no US equivalent of Edmonton...

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

Which is why there's no US equivalent of Calgary. Canada builds high-rises like a mofo. The US... not so much. There's no US equivalent of Vancouver; there's no US equivalent of Edmonton...

That was for Miami, which probably has one of the highest ratio of high-rises in North America.

[badrunner]

Miami is more like 1000 highrises serving a population of 100 million if you consider who actually owns all those condos.

[dc_denizen]

According to demographia, the densities of the Calgary and SLC urban areas are

SLC 3,000/sq mile (2.6 MM)
Calgary 5300/sq mile (1.3 MM)

However SLC urban area includes the lower density Ogden and Provo urban areas.

SLC itself, not just city limits but including the circular SLC urban area with its 10-20 other separate contiguous municipalities, looks to have around 1.15 million people, but it seems not as easy to find the find the density of this contiguous area.

Assuming that SLC County is 807 sq miles and 1/3 urban, that would put the core urban area at around 4800/sq mile. Lower than Calgary, but within spitting distance and hardly in some separate density category.



Cities:

Bluffdale
Cottonwood Heights
Draper
Herriman
Holladay
Midvale
Millcreek
Murray
Riverton
Salt Lake City (county seat)
Sandy
South Jordan
South Salt Lake
Taylorsville
West Jordan
West Valley City

Metro Townships
Copperton
Emigration Canyon
Kearns
Magna
White City

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_L...y,_Utah#Cities

the map above shows the municipalities within SLC county. the white area is uninhabited, but even in the grey areas, plenty of land is non-urbanized

eg salt lake city itself appears to be 1/2 wilderness, 1/4 airport+industrial land, and 1/4 inhabited: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sa...4d-111.8910474

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

That was for Miami, which probably has one of the highest ratio of high-rises in North America.

Oh. I didn't read the whole thread leading up to that comment. I just assumed the comment was about Calgary due to the "1.4 million" figure. Not sure what that 1.4 million figure could have to do with a metropolis as large as Miami's.

Anyway, I think my comment still stands. Obviously Canada is far more high-rise happy than the US. There are no US analogues of similar populations to cities like Calgary and Vancouver when it comes to skylines/skyscrapers.

I wish there were. I'm a bit jealous of our northern neighbor.

Edit: shit, I didn't even read the quoted comment, let alone the whole thread. Oops, lol. I must slow down my internetting and stop bouncing all over the damn place leaving nonsensical comments in my wake!

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

According to demographia, the densities of the Calgary and SLC urban areas are

SLC 3,000/sq mile (2.6 MM)
Calgary 5300/sq mile (1.3 MM)

However SLC urban area includes the lower density Ogden and Provo urban areas.

SLC itself, not just city limits but including the circular SLC urban area with its 10-20 other separate contiguous municipalities, looks to have around 1.15 million people, but it seems not as easy to find the find the density of this contiguous area.

Assuming that SLC County is 807 sq miles and 1/3 urban, that would put the core urban area at around 4800/sq mile. Lower than Calgary, but within spitting distance and hardly in some separate density category.



Cities:

Bluffdale
Cottonwood Heights
Draper
Herriman
Holladay
Midvale
Millcreek
Murray
Riverton
Salt Lake City (county seat)
Sandy
South Jordan
South Salt Lake
Taylorsville
West Jordan
West Valley City

Metro Townships
Copperton
Emigration Canyon
Kearns
Magna
White City

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_L...y,_Utah#Cities

the map above shows the municipalities within SLC county. the white area is uninhabited, but even in the grey areas, plenty of land is non-urbanized

eg salt lake city itself appears to be 1/2 wilderness, 1/4 airport+industrial land, and 1/4 inhabited: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sa...4d-111.8910474

But you aren't making any of those same adjustments for metro Calgary.

[dc_denizen]

However the southern part of the SLC metro , specifically Orem, seems a lot less appealing and lower density, with miniscule urban centers and a lot of sprawl/big box development, sadly, as its in a gorgeous location

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

But you aren't making any of those same adjustments for metro Calgary.

but metro calgary is calgary, its one single municipality

see the red border?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ca...4d-114.0718831

compare salt lake county with salt lake city. If SLC City tomorrow annexed SLC county, you would have an urban area with nearly the same population as Calgary, with a similar oval shape, and with similar (5500/sq mile vs 4800/sq mile) urban area (=built up) density

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

Oh. I didn't read the whole thread leading up to that comment. I just assumed the comment was about Calgary due to the "1.4 million" figure. Not sure what that 1.4 million figure could have to do with a metropolis as large as Miami's.

Anyway, I think my comment still stands. Obviously Canada is far more high-rise happy than the US. There are no US analogues of similar populations to cities like Calgary and Vancouver when it comes to skylines/skyscrapers.

I wish there were. I'm a bit jealous of our northern neighbor.

Bland glass condo towers and sterile corporate towers are not everything. I'm jealous of the amazing pre-war bones that many American cities have (row houses, high streets, pre-war highrises, etc.) America's longer and richer urban tradition is clear to me.

Both countries have their strengths and weaknesses when it comes to urbanity. In my (no doubt biased opinion), Canadian cities are, generally speaking, healthier than American cities at the moment, but American cities have tremendous potential.

EDIT:

I hope Robertpuant doesn't mind me quoting his post here, but it really illustrates what I mean:

Originally Posted by Robertpuant

You've written my exact thoughts better than I could. American cities have amazing bones. They just need more meat over it. Some of their second/third tier cities have prewar skyscrapers/monuments that would instantly make a top 10 list in Canada. Australian cities are on the opposite end of that.

In pictures it looks like this: this is Tulsa, a middle of no-where 3rd tier city. This could be downtown Toronto:





until you zoom out and see this:

EDIT 2: Just to further discussion of the original post, Tulsa is interesting. Its approximately the same size as Calgary (well, Calgary is about 30% larger). In my opinion, Calgary does not have any city block as classically urban as depicted in those first two photos of downtown Tulsa. However, zoom out, and this is what downtown Calgary looks like (the comparison to the Tulsa aerial is quite jarring):

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

but metro calgary is calgary, its one single municipality

see the red border?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ca...4d-114.0718831

compare salt lake county with salt lake city. If SLC City tomorrow annexed SLC county, you would have an urban area with nearly the same population as Calgary, with a similar oval shape, and with similar (5500/sq mile vs 4800/sq mile) urban area (=built up) density

I'm really impressed at your attempt to engage with and analyse the data. I'd say it sounds fairly accurate.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

but metro calgary is calgary, its one single municipality

see the red border?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ca...4d-114.0718831

compare salt lake county with salt lake city. If SLC City tomorrow annexed SLC county, you would have an urban area with nearly the same population as Calgary, with a similar oval shape, and with similar (5500/sq mile vs 4800/sq mile) urban area (=built up) density

Right, but even so, like all metro areas, it includes plenty of low density or essentially empty agricultural/wilderness land at its margins. As I understand it (and maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're doing), you're carving those low density/empty areas out of SLC (for the sake of this comparison), but not doing the same for Calgary.

In any event, I don't mean to belabor the point/discussion.