Downtown Grocery Stores

[urbandreamer]

Downtown Stratford has a few specialty grocery-style shops but nothing major; meanwhile downtown small town Ontario often has a Foodland: eg St Mary's, Seaforth, Omemee, Exeter, Brussels all being towns I've liked on my 2020 Tour d'Ontario

[biguc]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

That's a good point. It's one thing to have a suburban-style supermarket near downtown and quite another to have a bunch of supermarkets that are smaller but more geared towards urban lifestyles. Many people who live in dense areas tend to walk or bike to get their groceries several times a week, so they don't necessarily need a one-stop-shop kind of megastore.

Just for example, here in Montreal I have five small or medium-sized supermarkets within a 10 minute walk of my apartment, with a big-box style supermarket about 15 minutes away. There's also a half-dozen small food stores like fishmongers, butchers, greengrocers and other specialty shops. I almost never go to the big-box store because all the small and medium-sized stores meet my needs pretty well.

I really noticed the difference when I stayed with my friends who live in Toronto near Lansdowne subway. It's a pretty dense area, not all that different to where I live in Montreal, but there are no small greengrocers nearby. The only choices for groceries within a 15 minute walk are suburban-style Sobeys, FreshCo, Loblaws and Wal-Mart, all of which have big parking lots and aren't very pedestrian-friendly.

That's it. Canada's major grocery chains aren't capable of serving urban areas because top to bottom they're oriented towards being suburban, drive-n, all-things-to-everyone mini-wholesalers. Economies of scale--selling SUVs full of groceries at a time--are central to their business model; they aren't set up to make money off people walking in and buying four or five items, so they actively discourage that kind of purchasing. When they attempt to make urban-format stores, they end up jacking up prices to make up the difference and they inevitably fail.

Contrast this to discount grocery chains like Aldi, Lidl, Spar, that you'll find on almost every block of European cities. Their business is based on turning over stock. Every piece of stock is a loss until it sells, so they're set up to make sure that doesn't happen, with limited selection focused on the affordable provision of those four or five items you want to buy daily and carry home.

This model could work in Canadian cities too but the supply chain isn't there. It might be a smart thing for Canadian mayors to put together a concerted effort to attract this kind of grocery chain. I'm pretty sure Lidl already operates in the NE states, so it's not a huge stretch.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Because it's annoying to have to use a big honking cart if you're just buying 4-5 things, which is what urban shoppers do. Hand carts are way more convenient.

It is a small annoyance I agree - but it's reflective of a whole mentality that makes it harder for urban people to get access to food.

Weird that they would only have large carts.

Here in uber suburban Gatineau they all have hand baskets and also smaller carts available.

I used a basket yesterday at my local Metro.

[casper]

Originally Posted by biguc

That's it. Canada's major grocery chains aren't capable of serving urban areas because top to bottom they're oriented towards being suburban, drive-n, all-things-to-everyone mini-wholesalers. Economies of scale--selling SUVs full of groceries at a time--are central to their business model; they aren't set up to make money off people walking in and buying four or five items, so they actively discourage that kind of purchasing. When they attempt to make urban-format stores, they end up jacking up prices to make up the difference and they inevitably fail.

Contrast this to discount grocery chains like Aldi, Lidl, Spar, that you'll find on almost every block of European cities. Their business is based on turning over stock. Every piece of stock is a loss until it sells, so they're set up to make sure that doesn't happen, with limited selection focused on the affordable provision of those four or five items you want to buy daily and carry home.

This model could work in Canadian cities too but the supply chain isn't there. It might be a smart thing for Canadian mayors to put together a concerted effort to attract this kind of grocery chain. I'm pretty sure Lidl already operates in the NE states, so it's not a huge stretch.

I disagree on the premise that they are not setup to work in Urban environment.

Rabba in Toronto/Mississauga is an example of a grocery store that is all about serving that downtown market.

On the Westcoast the Jim Pattison Group has Urban Fairs and Natures that is very much geared to that market.

The real future of downtown groceries is going to be lockers. Basically this type of technology" https://www.mightyoaks.com/solution/...ann-panasonic/

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by biguc

That's it. Canada's major grocery chains aren't capable of serving urban areas because top to bottom they're oriented towards being suburban, drive-n, all-things-to-everyone mini-wholesalers. Economies of scale--selling SUVs full of groceries at a time--are central to their business model; they aren't set up to make money off people walking in and buying four or five items, so they actively discourage that kind of purchasing. When they attempt to make urban-format stores, they end up jacking up prices to make up the difference and they inevitably fail.

Contrast this to discount grocery chains like Aldi, Lidl, Spar, that you'll find on almost every block of European cities. Their business is based on turning over stock. Every piece of stock is a loss until it sells, so they're set up to make sure that doesn't happen, with limited selection focused on the affordable provision of those four or five items you want to buy daily and carry home.

This model could work in Canadian cities too but the supply chain isn't there. It might be a smart thing for Canadian mayors to put together a concerted effort to attract this kind of grocery chain. I'm pretty sure Lidl already operates in the NE states, so it's not a huge stretch.

Don't we already have 7-Eleven and corner stores that do exactly that?

[speedog]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Don't we already have 7-Eleven and corner stores that do exactly that?

Yes but at a cost for the consumer, milk and eggs are certainly more expensive at a convenience store than a regular grocery store.

With respect to downtown major grocery chain locations being more expensive because of being presented as an urban format model, Loblaws didn't do that with their new downtown Calgary location - before it opened there was speculation of such a format but in the end it turned out to be a regular Superstore with the same pricing as other Superstores. What I have found though is a bit more of catering to a walk-in crowd by means of the types of offerings on it's shelves but the bulk buys are still there as well - I guess it's no different than the Superstore we regularly patronize as it's offerings are tailored a bit more to the local clientele than other Superstores although our nearby Superstore is not really a suburban locale, almost inner city 1950-70's communities around it.

[Acajack]

We stopped at Dollarama yesterday and my wife came out and pointed out a lady who had bought almost 200 bucks of stuff: bread, toilet paper, etc.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Don't we already have 7-Eleven and corner stores that do exactly that?

You can't grocery shop at 7-Eleven unless you want to subsist on slurpees, Big Bites and Doritos. The actual grocery selection is minimal and expensive.

To biguc's point, it amazes me how well merchandised many of the small European grocery chains are. You might have a shop with maybe a couple thousand square feet of floorspace but they will have everything that you typically need on a daily basis including fresh fruits and produce, and for a reasonable price.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

We stopped at Dollarama yesterday and my wife came out and pointed out a lady who had bought almost 200 bucks of stuff: bread, toilet paper, etc.

Damn. I think my all time record at Dollarama is maybe about 60 dollars.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by biguc

That's it. Canada's major grocery chains aren't capable of serving urban areas because top to bottom they're oriented towards being suburban, drive-n, all-things-to-everyone mini-wholesalers. Economies of scale--selling SUVs full of groceries at a time--are central to their business model; they aren't set up to make money off people walking in and buying four or five items, so they actively discourage that kind of purchasing. When they attempt to make urban-format stores, they end up jacking up prices to make up the difference and they inevitably fail.

Contrast this to discount grocery chains like Aldi, Lidl, Spar, that you'll find on almost every block of European cities. Their business is based on turning over stock. Every piece of stock is a loss until it sells, so they're set up to make sure that doesn't happen, with limited selection focused on the affordable provision of those four or five items you want to buy daily and carry home.

This model could work in Canadian cities too but the supply chain isn't there. It might be a smart thing for Canadian mayors to put together a concerted effort to attract this kind of grocery chain. I'm pretty sure Lidl already operates in the NE states, so it's not a huge stretch.

So how do chains like Albert Heijn and Jumbo fit into your argument?

[acottawa]

Loblaws has a good hybrid format on Rideau Street in Ottawa. Underground parking makes it viable for drivers but the main entrance faces the street, and it is reasonably compact so it is comfortable for pedestrians. The store predated my arrival in Ottawa, but I would guess it is 90s era.

I have not seen it replicated since, maybe because land costs have gone up since the 90s and the only options now are ground floors of condos.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

We stopped at Dollarama yesterday and my wife came out and pointed out a lady who had bought almost 200 bucks of stuff: bread, toilet paper, etc.

Was it a food desert or are there obviously-better options around?

[speedog]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Was it a food desert or are there obviously-better options around?

Can one actually buy real food at a dollar store? Produce, dairy, meat, eggs and such or is it all just prepackaged something?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by speedog

Can one actually buy real food at a dollar store? Produce, dairy, meat, eggs and such or is it all just prepackaged something?

Pretty well everything is prepackaged and processed. But it isn't just chips and cookies... you can get some random basics like bread, cans of tuna, canned vegetables, fruit juices, etc. I see it as more of a convenience stop than anything else... if I'm going to Dollarama to get a greeting card and I need some mustard too, I'll just get it there.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by esquire

Pretty well everything is prepackaged and processed. But it isn't just chips and cookies... you can get some random basics like bread, cans of tuna, canned vegetables, fruit juices, etc. I see it as more of a convenience stop than anything else... if I'm going to Dollarama to get a greeting card and I need some mustard too, I'll just get it there.

So it's not a grocery store per se.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by speedog

So it's not a grocery store per se.

No...definitely not. Even a Shoppers Drug Mart covers the bases better than Dollarama or Dollar Tree.

[casper]

Originally Posted by esquire

No...definitely not. Even a Shoppers Drug Mart covers the bases better than Dollarama or Dollar Tree.

Depends on your definition of basics. A Dollarama will have a fairly good selection of canned foods, condiments, spices, cooking oils, rice, dry pasta, bread, juice etc. What it will not have is fresh.

London Drugs a better selection than the dollar stores plus adding fresh milk.

Loblaws has no consistency with their Shoppers stores, some have shelf stable foods other don't. Some have frozen and refrigerated food.

[acottawa]

In the US dollar stores have obliterated grocery stores in a lot of marginal communities, further exacerbating the food desert problem. Hopefully that doesn’t happen here.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Loblaws has a good hybrid format on Rideau Street in Ottawa. Underground parking makes it viable for drivers but the main entrance faces the street, and it is reasonably compact so it is comfortable for pedestrians. The store predated my arrival in Ottawa, but I would guess it is 90s era.

I have not seen it replicated since, maybe because land costs have gone up since the 90s and the only options now are ground floors of condos.

Yeah, I was actually just about to chime in about that store as a good example of an urban store.

[urbandreamer]

The worst grocery store I've been to recently is the downtown Hamilton Giant Tiger. Got an instant flashback to Vancouver's Save-on-Meats c.2002. (Welfare central, few people wearing masks or maintaining social distance, lots of homeless people wandering in and out.)

In Waterloo, Goodness Me is my favourite - for some reason it's got very few customers but the fennel sausage is amazing (I ate it for lunch today.) Yesterday they had to go Thanksgiving meals - I passed because I'm making the dinner tonight. Yet Herrle's Market down the street was packed - it's not that great.