Glendale/West Valley Development Thread

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by glynnjamin

come on, Scruggs and the rest of the city counsel have abandoned downtown glendale. They showed that they didn't give a shit about it when they pushed for LRT down I-10. That will be the final stake through the heart of Glendale. It was idiotic to build Westgate and it will continue to cost the city money. Their downtown was starting to come back but this recession has removed any and all hope it ever had.

The ONLY saving grace of downtown Glendale would be commuter rail. Nothing else can bring it back - surely not some new overlays.

I cant disagree more. How the hell was Glendale, in your mind supposed to develop a nice dense walkable downtown without these overlays? Was every project supposed to apply for dozens upon dozens of variances? Overlays that promote a denser area are a big key to growing a denser area.

Scruggs and Co pushing for LRT down the 10/101 was a mistake, but guess what that hasn't been settled yet. With the delays in funding it may not be settled unto a newer (and hopefully wiser) leadership takes over in Glendale.

Westgate didn't kill their downtown either, it just created more opportunity. The Valley and the West side are big enough, or will be soon enough to support more jobs, density, living space, retail, etc. If they plan it right the area between Downtown Glendale and Westgate could be the Westsides Camelback Corridor (though not as high end). Westgate also created more of a tax base for Glendale which potentially they can use to help with this corridor.

Saying one thing or another is the 'only saving grace' is just silly. Great walkable areas are due to a huge number of factors and there's not one thing or another that makes or breaks them.

[glynnjamin]

They essentially repeated Phx's mistakes. Just like how the Central corridor killed downtown Phx, Westgate is killing downtown Glendale. People no longer drive through Glendale to get there, they just hop on the freeway and stop to watch the game, turn around and come home. There is nothing worth doing at Westgate (unless you count the free booze at ShoutHouse tonight) and no reason to stay. The interior areas of Glendale are made up of poor Mexicans. Glendale relies on Westgate and North Glendale for tax revenue to prop it up. Now that N.Glendale has lost so much value, you see them really hurting for money. Add to that the lawyers they have to keep around for the hockey battle and Glendale is suffering big time.

You can apply all of the overlays you want. No one in their right mind wants to build there. Maybe in 10 years but not now. Why build in downtown Glendale when you could build around the epicenter of activity 5 miles to the west for half the price? Until LRT connects downtown Glendale and Westgate, the area is a loss in my mind. What does Glendale have to offer that Phx doesn't already have? Football and hockey...that's it. Those are too far from downtown Glendale for anyone to even think the two are in the same city.

[Vicelord John]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

^UH, what? Downtown Glendale has a terrific stock of historic buildings, charming tree lines streets and could really be something terrific. Its far from "beyond repair" and a lot closer to "close to turning the corner" for someone with vision. Especially if theyre smart enough to run LRT (with accompanying TOD) connecting Downtown Glendale and Westgate.

you're blind.

You ever been to the Mexican fiesta called Westgate?

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by Vicelord John

you're blind.

You ever been to the Mexican fiesta called Westgate?

Westgate has always been a gimmick used to fool the city of Glendale to fund Glendale Arena.

[glynnjamin]

You shoulda been there when Mexico played the USA for a World Cup Qualifier...then it was a REAL fiesta.

[Vicelord John]

the only time I've ever been there, a bunch of cholos followed my group all the way across the place trying to pick a fight until they were greeted by police.

Seriously, fuck the avenues.

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by Vicelord John

Seriously, fuck the avenues.

I rarely ever go west of 7th Ave and if I do, I'm on my way to CA. There's really no point, unless I want to see more rapidly decaying suburban housing and strip malls.

[Vicelord John]

wait you just reminded me of a good point. I guess some of my favorite places are in the avenues. Pane Bianco, Lux, Seamus Mcaffrey's, Cheuvront, etc. Maybe I should say fuck all the avenues bigger than first.

[combusean]

Hoover, new zoning regulations aren't going to encourage more developers. If anything they'll encourage teardowns and landbanking, the opposite of what they should do in a recession. If people wanted to build there they would be.

I'm with glynn on this one, commuter rail is the only thing that would put downtown Glendale on anyone's radar screen.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by Vicelord John

you're blind.

You ever been to the Mexican fiesta called Westgate?

What does Westgate being a 'Mexican fiesta' have to do with DOWNTOWN GLENDALE? If you don't think Downtown Glendale has a nice stock of buildings, shady streets, and a ton of potential you're crazy.

Originally Posted by combusean

Hoover, new zoning regulations aren't going to encourage more developers. If anything they'll encourage teardowns and landbanking, the opposite of what they should do in a recession. If people wanted to build there they would be.

I'm with glynn on this one, commuter rail is the only thing that would put downtown Glendale on anyone's radar screen.

Tear downs of what? Empty lots? Alfalfa fields? Overlays won't encourage tear downs of Glendales current stock of buildings at all, especially if they do the overlays properly and include historic preservation elements in them.

Its mind numbing that you guys think people would build good walkable stuff in Downtown Glendale with zoning that specifically forbids that. Do you have any example of this ever happening anywhere in this country at any time? By this 'logic' the Urban Form zoning guidelines for Downtown will encourage more land banking and tear downs (which obviously they won't).

Commuter rail will help downtown Glendale, and hopefully in the next 20 years or so it'll happen. There's still a very real possibility of LRT going through Glendale as well (since its what Phoenix wants and they may be able to strong arm Glendale) which would obviously help too.

Glynn, I disagree with your basic premise that Phoenix developing Midtown was a mistake. Sure it took away from downtown in the short to medium run, but in the long run it was the right thing to do. Most big cities have secondary CBDs, and now that Phoenix is filling out Midtown will likely settle into that role nicely.

[reguyphx]

I totally agree that the midtown zoning has killed (or at least slowed dramatically) the progression of downtown phoenix. I find it hard for anyone to disagree with this point. If all of the employment that is in midtown, (which is probably around 50K people) was located downtown than the housing and retail developments downtown would be much more successful. This in turn would not require the City of Phoenix to provide huge financial incentives (i.e. CityScape) to justify development in the central core. Yes, some other major cities have more than 1 urban area, but this only happens after the downtown area is a vibrant and successful area. Lets encourage city officials around the valley to limit high density development to a limited amount of areas (most importantly downtown), in the long run a vibrant and successful downtown will benefit all of the surrounding suburbs. If private and public development are limited in the surrounding areas it will force more creative high density development in the urban core. If this would have been the philosophy during the last development cycle than misguided developments such as CityNorth and WestGate, which cost tax payers millions of dollars, would not have been built. If you don't think WesGate and CityNorth were mistakes look at the vacancy rates.

I don't think downtown Glendale is a lost cause, but changing the zoning won't make high density development viable. If the demand is there for higher density development then the zoning should be changed, but no demand currently exists for this type of development.

Downtown and Midtown have decades to go before they will be filled in. Midtown has not seen any new office development in 20 years for a reason..no demand. Downtown and midtown have light rail and demand is still limited as evidenced by the current residential, office and retail vacancy rates. Given this fact lets focus efforts on downtown Phoenix and we will have several decades to adjust zoning for secondary urban cores.

[glynnjamin]

You want an example of how Urban Form has failed? Allow me to direct you at a)Phx Warehouse district - where speculators bought up all of the land knowing it would become valuable with the overlays and now won't do anything with it. Even their plans for JSED include tearing down a couple of them.
b)Jewelbox lot - one of the busiest corners in downtown right across from major ASU development was razed and turned into a parking lot.
c)that ugly triangle building that "accidentally" burned down and now has a 500ft proposal on it.

Each of these illustrates the problems with these overlays. Speculators buy up the stuff with potential, developers raze the stuff too complicated to reuse, and those who want to do something but can't just burn down the place so that they can build whatever they want.

[combusean]

And believe me, if a developer wants to build in a city, zoning regulations aren't stepping in their way. Phoenix's Urban Residential zoning district was written by the zoning attorney for Roosevelt Square's builder. A team of ostensibily real developers drove the rezoning of the 24th/Camelback area. The warehouse district is a shining example of why this is a bad idea on a large scale, and there were multiple developers behind that with money.

Obviously the recession has wiped all that out. If they're not building where there is demand, they're not going to build where there is no demand. Opening the floodgates will only satisfy the fly-by-nighters.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by glynnjamin

Each of these illustrates the problems with these overlays. Speculators buy up the stuff with potential, developers raze the stuff too complicated to reuse, and those who want to do something but can't just burn down the place so that they can build whatever they want.

So in other words your complaints isn't about the overlays at all, its about the same issue Phoenix has had since the 60s with tear downs. To blame the tear down issue on recent overlays when Phx has been going through this issue for decades is laughable at best. The problem isn't overlays its lack of any regulation regarding tear downs and property tax system that incentivizes tear downs, its a separate issue entirely.

Originally Posted by combusean

And believe me, if a developer wants to build in a city, zoning regulations aren't stepping in their way. Phoenix's Urban Residential zoning district was written by the zoning attorney for Roosevelt Square's builder. A team of ostensibily real developers drove the rezoning of the 24th/Camelback area. The warehouse district is a shining example of why this is a bad idea on a large scale, and there were multiple developers behind that with money.

Obviously the recession has wiped all that out. If they're not building where there is demand, they're not going to build where there is no demand. Opening the floodgates will only satisfy the fly-by-nighters.

While its true that a big developer who wants to build something urban certainly can get the variances and can be successful, why make them go through all that? Further, smaller developers likely don't have the time, resources or know how to get through all of that bologna, so creating good zoning helps them with that.

I really can't believe we're even having this discussion on a forum promoting urban areas, you two seem to be all about suburban zoning codes...I don't get it. Further its not like Glendale is zoning for high rises that'll need tons of office space or luxury condo buyers, we're talking about fucking 5 and 6 story buildings here, you know the height of all those buildings that line every fucking freeway in town and spring up over night? Comparing it to the Downtown-Midtown situation is silly.

[glynnjamin]

But you're not promoting urban areas...you are promoting the destruction of historical properties by turning them into some corporate wasteland. The problem absolutely IS with overlays. There is no need to put an overlay or to create a zone if there is a market for the property. Are you trying to argue that because of the LACK of an overlay, the beet factory was never turned into the proposed lofts that the developer wanted? Are you trying to argue that because of the LACK of an overlay downtown Glendale has regressed back to the slum it was 15 years ago? I think most of us would agree that downtown Glendale was seeing a bit of a resurgence before Westgate was built. It quickly fell off after the completion of the Cardinals stadium.

What we are arguing is that overlays create artificial value for developers. That is really all they attract and that's what they are designed to do. They are there to make large plots of land look more inviting so that big money comes in and makes sweeping changes. If they wanted to make things easier for small business owners who want to turn a 1915 house into a English pub, then they would streamline their rezoning process, eliminate red tape, and create a division of the city government to help you do it (like Phoenix did).

The OTHER problem is that Glendale is allowing high rise zoning around Westgate which further draws from their potential pot of developers (big and small).

[Don B.]

I noticed on Facebook that Ben Bethel was talking about the $1.2 billion Glendale city center project "was a go" on Loop 101 and Bethany Home (roughly), and wondering if the amusement park (possibly associated with same--his posting was not clear in this regards) was going to be Six Flags or something else. I called him out on this issue because there's no recent media exposure on point. We'll see what he says, but I'm thinking this is a crock of manure at this point in time.

--don

[glynnjamin]

I saw that too Don. I did all kinds of searches for it and didn't find anything. As far as I know, there is no way in hell an amusement park could go in at Main Street Glendale because of the airport RIGHT NEXT DOOR. It just wouldn't happen. In fact, that's why Glendale bought the land from Phx - to make sure nothing was built there.

[HX_Guy]

Actually there is an article in last weeks' Business Journal saying that the project is a go. It doesn't talk about the amusement park specifically but mentions a waterpark...

[Vicelord John]

[HooverDam]

http://www.azcentral.com/community/g...ay0210-ON.html

Glendale renovating key downtown alleyway
4 comments by Derek Quizon - Feb. 10, 2010 08:37 AM
The Arizona Republic
Glendale will begin a $429,000 beautification project this year to make downtown more accessible to pedestrians.

The project, funded entirely by federal stimulus money, will turn an alleyway just east of 58th and Glendale avenues into a brick-paved, lighted walkway leading to the Civic Center.


Glendale Transportation Director Jamsheed Mehta said the walkway is part of a larger plan to make the historic downtown more of a tourist attraction by becoming more pedestrian-friendly.

"It's all about creating an environment so you can draw people and keep them in downtown longer," he said. "We're trying to create a more dynamic, active environment."

Businesses likely to be affected by the project include A Mad Hatter's Antiques and Collectibles shop and Bitz-ee Mama's Mexican restaurant .

Ray Ralls , owner of A Mad Hatter's, said he favors the plan because it could attract new businesses.

Ralls said he sees the potential for the alleyway to become a busy pedestrian walkway. Entrepreneurs and business owners could open up shops on either side of the walkway, sometimes by renting space from existing property owners, making it a focal point of downtown, he said.

"If we ever decided to divide the building, we could actually create alleyway shops," Ralls said. "When they improve the alleyway, it makes it possible for us to improve (the area) by adding more shops to downtown Glendale."

Lisa Dowd , who owns a coffee shop in the area, said the alleyway in its current condition is not conducive to attracting business owners or customers. Dowd's shop, A Shot of Java, faces the alleyway rather than the street, which means customers have to walk down the alleyway in order to get to it.

"It looks dangerous, it's not well-lit and it doesn't look like there's anything down there," Dowd said.

She added that city officials have promised to improve the area since she opened her business but have not acted on it until this year.

"For four years, they've been talking about doing this," Dowd said. "They should have done it years ago."

Mehta said the project was planned about five years ago but that the city had trouble getting it off the ground because of construction costs.

"It was bounced around as a plan, but there was no construction (money) available at the time," Mehta said.

Construction on the project is scheduled to begin in mid-February and last until May.

Sounds like a nice little project I suppose, I wish they wouldve included some renderings.