In Moscow, a Financial District in Name Only

[ukw]

Originally Posted by 10023

As they should.

And it's not just a petro-state, it's a kleptocracy. One with a failing culture and no real hope for improvement.

Have you been to Moscow? If there's one thing that's failing there, it's not culture. Maybe politics. Maybe the economy. But culture? Not with its plethora of art, ballet, entertainment, nightlife, and activities.

P.S.: Even NYC pales in comparison to what goes on in Moscow.

interesting to see the resurgence of anti-russian sentiment in the west.

There is absolutely no anti-Russian sentiment in the West. People around the world, including in the Anglosphere, have very favorable views of Russia and its leader. In fact, both the left- and right-wing forces in America love Russia (Russophilia). The left-wing bloc loves Putin for standing up to America and its corporate and militaristic interests. The right-wing bloc, on the other hand, also loves Putin for being a "real man" who stands up for the church, men's rights, and against the multiculturalism and homosexual agenda of the West. It is a paradox, but both sides in the West embrace Putin, for their own distinct interests.

This is most evident in the Comments sections of major news outlets. If you ever open the NYTimes Comments section, or the Washington Post, or the Guardian, readers' comments are very favorable about Russia. They're much more likely to criticize America.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by ukw

Have you been to Moscow? If there's one thing that's failing there, it's not culture. Maybe politics. Maybe the economy. But culture? Not with its plethora of art, ballet, entertainment, nightlife, and activities.

P.S.: Even NYC pales in comparison to what goes on in Moscow.


There is absolutely no anti-Russian sentiment in the West. People around the world, including in the Anglosphere, have very favorable views of Russia and its leader. In fact, both the left- and right-wing forces in America love Russia (Russophilia). The left-wing bloc loves Putin for standing up to America and its corporate and militaristic interests. The right-wing bloc, on the other hand, also loves Putin for being a "real man" who stands up for the church, men's rights, and against the multiculturalism and homosexual agenda of the West. It is a paradox, but both sides in the West embrace Putin, for their own distinct interests.

This is most evident in the Comments sections of major news outlets. If you ever open the NYTimes Comments section, or the Washington Post, or the Guardian, readers' comments are very favorable about Russia. They're much more likely to criticize America.

Is this the Kremlin posting or something?

The idea that Moscow is some global cultural hegemon is absurd. Much of the former Soviet cultural base fled to the West in the last 20 years.

The idea that there is no enmity toward Russia in the West is even more absurd. Russia is considered a pariah state across the political spectrum in the West.

[sentinel]

Originally Posted by ukw

Have you been to Moscow? If there's one thing that's failing there, it's not culture. Maybe politics. Maybe the economy. But culture? Not with its plethora of art, ballet, entertainment, nightlife, and activities.

P.S.: Even NYC pales in comparison to what goes on in Moscow.


There is absolutely no anti-Russian sentiment in the West. People around the world, including in the Anglosphere, have very favorable views of Russia and its leader. In fact, both the left- and right-wing forces in America love Russia (Russophilia). The left-wing bloc loves Putin for standing up to America and its corporate and militaristic interests. The right-wing bloc, on the other hand, also loves Putin for being a "real man" who stands up for the church, men's rights, and against the multiculturalism and homosexual agenda of the West. It is a paradox, but both sides in the West embrace Putin, for their own distinct interests.

This is most evident in the Comments sections of major news outlets. If you ever open the NYTimes Comments section, or the Washington Post, or the Guardian, readers' comments are very favorable about Russia. They're much more likely to criticize America.

This is utter bullshit - Russia isn't nearly as vibrant as you portray it, especially when the national population has been shrinking for decades now.

[ukw]

I wasn't giving my personal opinion of Russia. I was simply correcting the inaccurate statement that Russia is universally disliked and considered a pariah state. Maybe by certain politicians, but as stated above, not by a large number of actual people, including Westerners, as a cursory look at online comments will attest.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by ukw

I wasn't giving my personal opinion of Russia. I was simply correcting the inaccurate statement that Russia is universally disliked and considered a pariah state. Maybe by certain politicians, but as stated above, not by a large number of actual people, including Westerners, as a cursory look at online comments will attest.

No entity is "universally disliked" Even ISIS and the Taliban have a reasonable amount of support among some niche demographics in the West.

And a "cursory look at online comments" would be a pretty silly way of judging Russia's relative status. We already know the Kremlin pays thousands of Russians to write comments on Western media. That's been all over the Western press, and is quite obvious if you go to (say) NY Times or Guardian and see hundreds of postings with the exact same text, from different people in Russia. They're getting paid for writing from a preapproved Kremlin script.

[chris08876]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Is this the Kremlin posting or something?

Got a good laugh reading this. It does sound like something you would hear from the Kremlin.

But yea that no-anti Russian sentiment is wrong. The West hates Putin, But when you look deeper, maybe instead of hating him, what they really doing is fearing him.

[Ch.G, Ch.G]

Originally Posted by ukw

I wasn't giving my personal opinion of Russia. I was simply correcting the inaccurate statement that Russia is universally disliked and considered a pariah state. Maybe by certain politicians, but as stated above, not by a large number of actual people, including Westerners, as a cursory look at online comments will attest.

Originally Posted by Crawford

No entity is "universally disliked" Even ISIS and the Taliban have a reasonable amount of support among some niche demographics in the West.

And a "cursory look at online comments" would be a pretty silly way of judging Russia's relative status. We already know the Kremlin pays thousands of Russians to write comments on Western media. That's been all over the Western press, and is quite obvious if you go to (say) NY Times or Guardian and see hundreds of postings with the exact same text, from different people in Russia. They're getting paid for writing from a preapproved Kremlin script.

I don't doubt the existence of state-funded propagandists, but I think it's a little paranoid to claim that all of Putin's apologists were secretly operating from the Kremlin. Attempting to establish equivalencies between the actions of the US and its global antagonists is a common tactic for some on the left, after all. And at the beginning of the conflict in the Ukraine, you did see a number of highly promoted comments even in the NYT (whose commentariat, IMO, is a cut above the rest, in diction and syntax if nothing else) "siding" with Putin, or, at least, chastising the US response as hypocritical given its invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq (never mind the decisive shift in public opinion against those wars and the election of a president—twice!—dedicated to disentangling the US from them, but I digress). There were, however, plenty of critical responses, and, as the conflict wore on and Russia's involvement became all the more obvious (and all the more obviously nefarious), their numbers increased while the apologias disappeared. If anything, the debate shifted from Russia's culpability, which the consensus eventually accepted, to the US response, which even some liberals (of the humanitarian interventionist mold) argued was weak-kneed.

...which is all to say, I think Crawford is mostly right. I think he downplays the moral relativist response of some on the left, and, yes, even Putin's appeal to the fascist tendencies of some on the right. But I don't think anything like a majority of people in the US have held favorable opinions of Russia, especially not in the past couple of years. This Pew poll supports me, and goes on to show that the dislike in the West isn't limited to the US:

[10023]

^ and Africa, Asia and Latin America only have more favorable views of Russia to stick it to the US.

[Ch.G, Ch.G]

Originally Posted by chris08876

Got a good laugh reading this. It does sound like something you would hear from the Kremlin.

But yea that no-anti Russian sentiment is wrong. The West hates Putin, But when you look deeper, maybe instead of hating him, what they really doing is fearing him.

I don't think anyone in the West fears Putin, save former Soviet states sharing a border with Russia. Even then, the biggest fear is that he'll carve out a tiny puppet state from some majority Russophone subnational entity.

Putin is a deft politician but his actions are purely self-serving. Irredentist military campaigns, scapegoating gay people—shit likes this appeals to the basest human instincts so that he can turn himself into a romantic national hero. For what purpose, though? We all know that Russia's long-term well-being isn't threatened by the non-sovereignty of Transnistria or the creeping toleration of homosexuality.

Any historian will tell you that rulers aren't ultimately judged by their popularity but the quality of the institutions they leave behind. What will be the state of Russia's institutions once Putin is gone? Will the press be freer? Will speech be better protected? Will elections be fairer? Most relevant to the topic of the thread, will its economy be more diversified and less dependent on oil? No, but Moscow City will stand there to try to fool you into thinking otherwise.

[dc_denizen]

Like China, Russia's engagement with the western financial system and global institutions is comprehensively hostile. Agreements, laws, qui pro quo, these ideas mean nothing to the government entities that ultimately stand behind any economic actor from these countries. The goal is theft, destabilization, destruction of capitalist countries' economies, etc.

Western governments, and capitalist corporations, have been suicidal in accepting these destabilizing countries into the international system.

Russia out first, China next hopefully.

[10023]

China might be the most capitalist country on Earth. Much better than Russia, and will move toward Western standards over time. Plus it's too big to just ignore. Russia isn't except for the fact that it's got nukes.

[chris08876]

If anything China might serve as a lesson for other countries who wish to follow her footsteps. In terms of Capitalism, their economy is a hybrid of it in the form of State Capitalism. Well, it has developed to become this after the revolution onto now.

"To get rich is glorious"

- Deng Xiaoping

China and the U.S. will remain supreme in the 21st Century. Everybody else is small fish.

[Mad_Nick]

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

Lol, sheer scale? You have people making $10k/year and then people with $10 billion and pretty much no one in between... Oh and there is absolutely no semblance of Democracy so anyone who isn't an oligarch is completely disenfranchised.

The Gini-coefficients of Russia and the US are not all that dissimilar, Russia even has a slightly lower Gini-coefficient. The US is similarly controlled by its own version of "Oligharchs" (Russian Oligharcs though, are a more recent phenomenon created by the wholesale divestment of the state after the fall of the Soviet Union by the cheerleaders of neoliberal reform), and you can't seriously claim that the US is democratically ruled other than on paper, but funnily enough it's only viewed as a problem by the mainstream media when it comes to Russia. It's a global problem, not one restricted to Russia.

[greywallsareboring]

Moscow City is amazing to look at, especially from the bank of the Moscow River. However, what has annoyed some Russians I’ve met that work there is the location wedged between the river, the 3rd ring road, and an older neighborhood. There are few places to eat, everything is under constant construction, and the amount of dust from the work and the smog from the road makes going outside unpleasant. The views of course are amazing.

As for the current political situation, I would describe it as both surreal and incredibly frustrating.

First off, Moscow itself has made outstanding improvements, closing several central streets to only pedestrian traffic, rapidly expanding the metro, and the city government has begun to embrace biking, marathons, and other activities. The makeover of several parks, such as Gorky Park, is impressive. Plus there are dozens of new great eateries and bars.

However, Moscow is a bubble and Russia is vast. Right now my father-in-law is reading a newspaper claiming that the Ferguson protests are part of a Republican conspiracy to create “colored revolutions” to overthrow Obama. At the same time, the TV in the kitchen is blaring out the details of a money trail proving US mercenaries are supporting the “Kiev Fascists.” And the commercial during this program is advertising an upcoming story on how Obama has a grand conspiracy to get Europe to hate Russia and lower oil prices to weaken Russia.

Even those people who don’t believe these conspiracies still believe the news can lie because it counters the Western press. For much of the year, most people have taken sanctions and the falling ruble in-stride. I would say only in the last few weeks many pro-Putin people I know have become much more cynical. Much of this has to do with the hospital crisis in Moscow, but other people are realizing that the rosy picture on state television is becoming more and more ridiculous. As my friend said, one can only watch so many shows saying Ukraine is the most terrible place in the world without helping to become angry about the same problems in Russian politics, corruption, and economic troubles.

All in all, my wife and I try to remain positive, but that is hard to do when all of our elderly relatives depend on the Russian pension system.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Mad_Nick

The Gini-coefficients of Russia and the US are not all that dissimilar, Russia even has a slightly lower Gini-coefficient.

But Russia is basically Mexico in terms of income. So, in the U.S., while there's massive inequality, the median income is highest in the world among large nations. In Russia, there's massive inequality and median incomes are developing world standards.

When you leave Moscow, which is fairly prosperous and progressive (and also vehemently anti-Putin, BTW), the rest of the country is still pretty much the developing world, and more analogous to Latin America, Middle East, China, etc, in terms of how the average family lives. Putin leverages the deprivation in the provinces.

[LouisVanDerWright]

Originally Posted by Mad_Nick

The Gini-coefficients of Russia and the US are not all that dissimilar, Russia even has a slightly lower Gini-coefficient. The US is similarly controlled by its own version of "Oligharchs" (Russian Oligharcs though, are a more recent phenomenon created by the wholesale divestment of the state after the fall of the Soviet Union by the cheerleaders of neoliberal reform), and you can't seriously claim that the US is democratically ruled other than on paper, but funnily enough it's only viewed as a problem by the mainstream media when it comes to Russia. It's a global problem, not one restricted to Russia.

The difference of course being that most Russian Oligarchs have acquired their wealth through corrupt government connections while most American capitalists have earned it through entirely legitimate businesses. Also, let's not forget that Americans are, on average, significantly (i.e. 2-3 times) more wealthy than Russians. So, while the richest Americans are significantly richer than the average American, the average American is not doing all that bad and, if they come up with the right business plan, the average American could potentially make a million, hundred million, or billion dollars.

GINI coefficient is nice and all, but let's keep in mind that it is a relatively simplistic equation essentially deriving a stat from a handful of other numbers that really do little to represent intangibles like social mobility, corruption, etc. which were the main subject of my post.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by greywallsareboring

Moscow City is amazing to look at, especially from the bank of the Moscow River. However, what has annoyed some Russians I’ve met that work there is the location wedged between the river, the 3rd ring road, and an older neighborhood. There are few places to eat, everything is under constant construction, and the amount of dust from the work and the smog from the road makes going outside unpleasant. The views of course are amazing.

As for the current political situation, I would describe it as both surreal and incredibly frustrating.

First off, Moscow itself has made outstanding improvements, closing several central streets to only pedestrian traffic, rapidly expanding the metro, and the city government has begun to embrace biking, marathons, and other activities. The makeover of several parks, such as Gorky Park, is impressive. Plus there are dozens of new great eateries and bars.

However, Moscow is a bubble and Russia is vast. Right now my father-in-law is reading a newspaper claiming that the Ferguson protests are part of a Republican conspiracy to create “colored revolutions” to overthrow Obama. At the same time, the TV in the kitchen is blaring out the details of a money trail proving US mercenaries are supporting the “Kiev Fascists.” And the commercial during this program is advertising an upcoming story on how Obama has a grand conspiracy to get Europe to hate Russia and lower oil prices to weaken Russia.

Even those people who don’t believe these conspiracies still believe the news can lie because it counters the Western press. For much of the year, most people have taken sanctions and the falling ruble in-stride. I would say only in the last few weeks many pro-Putin people I know have become much more cynical. Much of this has to do with the hospital crisis in Moscow, but other people are realizing that the rosy picture on state television is becoming more and more ridiculous. As my friend said, one can only watch so many shows saying Ukraine is the most terrible place in the world without helping to become angry about the same problems in Russian politics, corruption, and economic troubles.

All in all, my wife and I try to remain positive, but that is hard to do when all of our elderly relatives depend on the Russian pension system.

thanks for the on-the-ground perspective!

[Mad_Nick]

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

The difference of course being that most Russian Oligarchs have acquired their wealth through corrupt government connections while most American capitalists have earned it through entirely legitimate businesses. Also, let's not forget that Americans are, on average, significantly (i.e. 2-3 times) more wealthy than Russians. So, while the richest Americans are significantly richer than the average American, the average American is not doing all that bad and, if they come up with the right business plan, the average American could potentially make a million, hundred million, or billion dollars.

GINI coefficient is nice and all, but let's keep in mind that it is a relatively simplistic equation essentially deriving a stat from a handful of other numbers that really do little to represent intangibles like social mobility, corruption, etc. which were the main subject of my post.

I am by no means making any kind of apologies for the sorry state of affairs in Russia, but I take issue with the black-and-white view many here and elsewhere have on Russia and America. Your belief that anyone who "comes up with the right business plan" can make millions or billions of dollars is a perfect example, and that American wealth came through some kind of "healthy" business practices. It's a nice thought, but it's all built upon decades of propaganda and lies, it's a reality that never existed other than in the minds of the privileged who deny their own privelege.

[dc_denizen]

^ Is everything peachy in the US? Of course not, but it really doesn't help anything for critics of the current economic arrangement to have such a distorted and unrealistic view of this society's shortcomings, as you seem to.

The US political system has served Americans pretty well over the years (with some obvious exceptions), and it has delivered many benefits - and not just lies and propaganda.

It would be better to focus on specific trends - like globalization or religious fundamentalism - that erode the well-functioning, time tested system of American democracy.

The comparison with Russia is pretty meaningless. Wake me up when Congress shuts down all other TV stations besides Fox News. That's the reality of Russia today, transposed to the US experience.

[Gantz]

Wow so much hate on Russia in this thread, many good posts, but a lot of people are clouded by mainstream media and can't discern reality from propaganda. As a disclaimer I am not a Putin apologist, I am just here listing some facts:

Claim #1: Moscow/Russia is not a European country.
Fact: It is self-evident that the central Russian region is decidedly European. If you ever go to Moscow/Russia and travel around the world, you'll know it right away. St. Petersburg in particular is one of the most beautiful cities in Europe hands down.

Claim #2: Russia has huge income inequality.
Fact: Russia is around average when it comes to income inequality. Other big developing nations have much bigger income inequality compared to Russia such as Mexico, Brazil, or Chile. Oddly enough for many members on this board, under Putin Russian income inequality went down. Putin main support base are the poor/uneducated and minorities (ethnic Russians have lower support for Putin compared to other ethnicities), not oligarchs or the rich.

Claim #3: Russia is not part of global financial system/everything is state-owned.
Fact: There are roughly 6,000 banks currently operating in Russia, a vast majority of them are private banks and have no connection to Russian government whatsoever and are not in western media eye for sanctions. Russia is a member of all major economic global organizations such as WTO, APEC, SCO, OSCE, etc. Russian stock market, banks, and publicly traded companies follow international accounting standards. Moscow stock exchange is a member of Euroclear and Clearstream. It is also in the top10 exchanges in the world when it comes to derivatives trades.

Claim #4: Russian population has been falling for decades, everyone is an alcoholic/drunk and drug addict.
Fact: This is propaganda in 2 parts:
Part 1: Population
Russia, unlike other European countries has natural increase in population. Also, Russia has one of the highest birth rates in Central or Eastern Europe. There are only a handful of European countries with higher rates and the difference between US and Russian TFR is around 0.1-0.2 now. In addition, Russia accepts more immigrants than any other nation, only behind the United States I believe. As a result, most Russian cities are at their historic highs population wise.
Part 2: Alcoholism
Actually Russian per capita alcohol consumption is lower than some other European countries such as Czech Republic, Finland, UK, and is comparable to many others. Overall, Russian alcohol consumption statistics are not outstanding at all, and are not *orders of magnitude* higher that some claim. Of course, Russia is the largest alcohol market in Europe, but this is all due to the size of the population. Oh and they also make vodka...
From my personal tourist experience: I've seen more drunks on the streets in South Korea than in Russia. I'd guess anyone else on this board who have been to Seoul/both countries will concur.

Not sure if I missed anything.