Arizona Center: Why didn't it work out?

[HX_Guy]

Plinko brought up the Arizona Center in the Cityscape thread and I was actually talking to gymratmanaz earlier about it...

I wasn't around when Arizona Center opened so I have no idea what sort of expectations there were to the project, how it was supposed to look/be built vs how it came out, and what eventually lead to it's demise.

According to critics, two main things are two blame. First, suburban-oriented wasn't ready for downtown development of this caliber and second, there were not enough permanent upscale apartments/condos in downtown at the time (Wikipedia).
It does not mention the inner oriented design of Arizona Center, which is personally why I wouldn't and don't go to it, it's not urban, and when I go downtown, I want an urban experience. That however may not have as much to do with it as I'd like to think because there are many downtowns that have full scale malls right in the middle of them and they thrive (thinking of San Diego as well as San Francisco).

So, for those of you who remember, what was Arizona Center like in it's early days? How was the buzz when it was being built and what was supposed to be built vs what actually was? How did it compare to how Cityscape is developing today and the buzz surrounding that?

[PHX31]

I think it was a success at first. I remember going there as a younger kid with my parents. We didn't go anywhere (save a game or two at AWA) downtown except the Arizona Center. We lived up in NW Phoenix, and we would make a trek specifically to the AZ Center (even Hooters sometimes!) every once in a while.

To me, I don't think it works now because there is nothing around it to feed it. The entire east and north side of it is a barren wasteland of empty lots. If the great historic neighborhoods that used to be there were still around and viable and feeding the AZ Center and it had a better design at its entranaces, ie, great entrances all around on all 4 sides, it might work better. As it is, only the southwest corner has a nice entrance (read: somewhat inviting) from the surrounding downtown. The east side is open, but not exactly welcoming, and the only other real entrance is just that from the parking garage. Can you even get in the place as a pedestrian from the northside??? Maybe if you walk through the parking ticket gates and through the garage.

I imagine if the neighborhoods on the north side were still around and healthy, as they should be (and as they are in most any other city), a "grand" entrance on the north would be and should be there. Once the central city became shit, and the AZ Center was given a bad design, it was destined to fail after its initial opening era.

[plinko]

Here's a picture of the original proposal:


I wonder where the model went?

I have to say that it's kind of hard for me to remember what it was like inside the place when it first opened. I was only 14 in 1990, but used to ride the bus (or bicycle) occasionally downtown from Tempe when I was staying there (I didn't live in Phoenix permanently at the time, just spent summers).

I do remember in like '92 or so there was a few national clothing boutiques in there (seems to me they were all chains like Arden B or something like that), there was a Waldenbooks, there was of course the food court. This stuff all coincided with the development of America West Arena and so Arizona Center sort of became the place to go before and after a Suns game.

I think that's why it so drastically changed over time in that there wasn't enough critical mass (i.e. residents) for mall type stores, but there were plenty of people there for Suns games. Remember that at that time, there wasn't much else in terms of restaurants in DT Phoenix and the city lagged greatly in terms of convention space.

After AWA went up, all the sudden there was competition for even restaurant business, with the opening of Majerle's and a few other places. The mid-90's accelerated this decline with some of the new destinations along Jackson Street (particularly the Jackson's on Third and Cooperstown). At that point, why would somebody park 6 blocks from the arena and go to Hooter's when there were much better restaurants available near the arena?

The opening of the BOB and Collier Center didn't help either.

I do recall that when the movie theater opened, there was much fanfare and AZ Center seemed much busier as a result.

So I don't know if that answered your question at all. When it was built, it was supposed to be THE destination point downtown. But at the time DT Phoenix was perceived as a rather dull and somewhat dangerous place. My guess is that this perception was part of the reason that the place isn't street friendly in any way. The demographic at the time said that people would drive there, park, enjoy the facility, and if they were walking anywhere, they would go SW toward the civic center, symphony hall, or the AWA. Why open the space to the west (parking lots), north (abandoned homes and parking lots), or east (the dilapitated Phoenix Union HS and more parking lots).

In a way, the design makes total sense for what DT Phoenix was at the time. I doubt they ever assumed there would be a 1000 room hotel across 3rd, or massive apartment complexes to the NW and North. Or that the PUHS would be redeveloped into the bio-tech campus.

I'd love to see Three Arizona Center (the office tower) built at some point, along with an apartment building (where the hotel was supposed to be), and then some retail (like a CVS and some neighborhood retail) along the north end of the site with some residential above. I think that AMC could lose 4-6 screens at the theater and re-orient the entry to the west (and open up to ASU). I also think the building along Third St should get re-worked and opened up to the west somehow. You have the whole 2-sided retail problem, but there's got to at least be a way to make it more friendly.

just my .02 for now...maybe I'll think of more later...

[HooverDam]

I remember when it opened it was heralded as a big deal. I was young at the time (I was 7 when it opened) so I obviously wasn't following development, but I recall excitement about it. We lived in Ahwautukee back when there was nothing there and we had to drive to Chandler or Mesa to do most our shopping. Sometimes as a 'treat' we'd get to go Downtown* to the Science Center or a few years later a Suns game and we'd always go to the AZ Center. Later on for school field trips and such we'd eat our sack lunches in the grassy area.

I think part of the reason it failed was maybe overly ambitious expectations. People thought it was going to be this awesome new thing unlike anything else in the Valley, and really went out of there way to go there at first and treat it as such. Then they realized it just had a Foot Locker and an ice cream place and whatever else their local mall had, there was no reason to drive to it.

Additionally 'retail follows rooftops' is always the phrase, and there was no one living downtown 20 years ago. The surrounding neighborhoods were even worse than they are now and downtown was far scarier to most folks. Really the retail components of the Center should've had at least 3 stories of apartments above them to help make it work. Nothing luxury (because selling luxury downtown would've been even tougher then than it is now) but workforce housing and people who could at the very least keep the center active.

*As an aside, I think this is why I fell in love with downtown in the first place. If we had to do ho hum grocery shopping it was in Mesa or Chandler. But if something special was happening, a field trip, a basketball game, a play, etc. it was downtown. It just seemed exciting and cosmopolitan to me, even though Downtown back then was eons lamer than it is now, I was pretty impressed as a kid.

EDIT: Just read Plinkos post and I totally agree that the AMC needs to downsize. It was built during a time when mega multiplexes were the trend, and thats long since passed. 24 theaters was and is too many theaters for the demand downtown and the place is always empty. It needs to be redone and reoriented so that it has a grand entrance facing Taylor St and being a nice endcap to the Taylor St Mall.

[HX_Guy]

Originally Posted by plinko

My guess is that this perception was part of the reason that the place isn't street friendly in any way. The demographic at the time said that people would drive there, park, enjoy the facility, and if they were walking anywhere, they would go SW toward the civic center, symphony hall, or the AWA. Why open the space to the west (parking lots), north (abandoned homes and parking lots), or east (the dilapitated Phoenix Union HS and more parking lots).

In a way, the design makes total sense for what DT Phoenix was at the time. I doubt they ever assumed there would be a 1000 room hotel across 3rd, or massive apartment complexes to the NW and North. Or that the PUHS would be redeveloped into the bio-tech campus.

After reading what you said, and looking at the model again, it makes perfect sense and why they built the north side the way they did. It looks like they actually had plans to close down 3rd St and have a convention center and the hotel itself built right on top of 3rd St. The north side was designed to actually not be visible once the whole project was built out.

[TAZ4ate0]

I didn't realize that the Arizona Center is 20 years old. I was thinking maybe 10.

[nickkoto]

When I first lived here, I was stationed at Luke AFB from 93-95, and I thought Arizona Center wasn't a half-bad place. I don't think the retail was ever plentiful enough to draw anyone there more than once, but the restaurants and bars were pretty good.

After I got out and moved back here in 2000, it seemed like the upstairs retail was already converted to offices, the Little Ditties was closed soon after, and the Hooter's chain as a whole became so pussified that it's essentially just another Applebee's, but with worse food.

I don't know what happened in those 5 years that I was gone, but somehow it went from a decent place to a destination with no redeeming qualities for anyone who had to get there from more than a walking distance.

[Teacher_AZ_84]

I was 6 when it opened and remember nothing. I do remember being a teen and going to the movies and food court every once in awhile.

Like HooverDam, I thought DT PHX was an amazing place when I was a kid. I loved going to AWA for games or school trips to the science museum.

[PhxPavilion]

I remember going there at least once as a kid when it opened. It was really vibrant and doing well, with a band playing in the court yard. I think its failure really is a result of everything that has been mentioned, there simply wasn't enough demand around it. Downtown was an abysmal state and while the AZ Center was indeed grand it couldn't sustain itself without help from anything else other than the sporting events and occasional Symphony Hall concert. I think we're lucky it got built downtown at all rather than as some big mega development in north Phoenix or Scottsdale.

[Vicelord John]

it didnt work because it was ahead of its time.

[Don B.]

I'm not sure I would call Arizona Center a failure. The theatre is still there...I catch a movie there about once per month on average. Each time I'm there, everything seems to have a nice crowd, so it is working to some degree. Think of it this way, it could be boarded up.

I moved to Phoenix in 1993 but I don't have any memories of going downtown until my interest in photography took off in the late 90s. I didn't own a PC until 1996 so I couldn't have taken many photos beforehand. It wasn't until the advent of digital photography in the very late 90s that I started to take a real interest in photos and urban issues. A friend of mine told me about this website in 2001 and I joined for the first time shortly thereafter.

--don

[Leo the Dog]

Great topic. I can think of a number of things that contributed to the demise of the AZ Center.

The first time I lived here was in 1993. Then I left, came back many years later and it was dead. Back then, the AZ Center attracted decent crowds, similar to today's Tempe Marketplace. However, soon thereafter, "Power Centers" became the thing in the early 90's. Competition was pretty strong back then. 44th St./Thomas power center (E. Phx), Camelback Colanade (Central Phx), even AZ Mills with close Freeway access at what is considered an inner-location (S. Phx), Even Elliot Rd. in Tempe (Ahwatukee/Tempe/Chandler residents). "Big Box" stores were somewhat new to Phoenix and they were the places to shop. I remember when Best Buy came, and it was the coolest thing ever.

The 51 ended at Northern, the 202 didn't make it to Tempe, the 10 was a 4 lane rural interstate at the 60 transition in Tempe.

Why go downtown when one could go to any of these convenient locations to most Phx neighborhoods?

Again, if one didn't know about the AZ Center, how are they supposed to find it and see it? There very little signage, lighting or anything to attract a passer-by.

Back then, it made sense to have it inward facing, (even though I HATE this design) it wasn't exactly in a great part of dt, so the design needed to make people feel safe in an urban environment. The Garfield neighborhood was worse than it is today. What else was around it? Empty lots. 3rd St. was not pedestrian oriented, it went below grade and under the Civic Center plaza, along with Washington St. This was intentional to create a barrier from the rest of the area, somewhat of a Berlin Wall to keep the 'unwanted' out. E. Van Buren was one of the worst corridors of Phx in the 90's. 1/2 down the road was no-man's land. Even the workforce dt was far lower than it is today and once 5pm hit it was a mad rush to get out of dt. How is a retail center supposed to make any money when there is nobody there after 5pm.

With that said, DT has made a HUGE change in a short period of time. I'm not going to write off the AZC...yet. It has potential to make a comeback.

[PHX31]

They should have named it Phoenix Center.

The interior courtyards and gardens are really nice. I like the levels and water features (could do without the frogs) and tree canopies. These areas are typically used. On a nice night all of the benches are taken by people and couples hanging out. That's nice.

[Vicelord John]

looking at that plan reminds me of collier center and cityscape... hmmmm

is cityscape really azcenter v.3?

[plinko]

Originally Posted by Vicelord John

looking at that plan reminds me of collier center and cityscape... hmmmm

is cityscape really azcenter v.3?

You're about two years too late on that call...

Anyway, one of the most disppointing things about Collier Center is that they took all the retail and put it above street level. You can't see it from anywhere. They had all the advantages over AZ Center (particularly with location, the reworking of the Civic Plaza, Washington and Third) and took advantage of none of it.

Even the 2nd Collier block was going to make that same lousy mistake (see below):


Back to the Arizona Center, I don't know that I'd necessarily call it a failure. It's simply evolved from a DT mall into a DT restaurant and entertainment destination. At that it is marginally successful. The public spaces are fantastic in terms of design, despite how inward facing it is. All they need to do now is find a way to better engage the surroundings. As the surrounding blocks develop, I only see it getting better, whereas Collier will always suck with that cumbersome circulation.

[kingofleos]

[QUOTE=HX_Guy;4361794]
It does not mention the inner oriented design of Arizona Center, which is personally why I wouldn't and don't go to it, it's not urban, and when I go downtown, I want an urban experience. That however may not have as much to do with it as I'd like to think because there are many downtowns that have full scale malls right in the middle of them and they thrive (thinking of San Diego as well as San Francisco).QUOTE]

I hear you. Downtown San Diego and San Francisco were already nice to begin with, especially since San Diego has recently upgraded their gas lamp district area. People WANT to be down there. With Phoenix, when the Arizona Center opened, NOBODY had any real reason for being in downtown.

[combusean]

^ I don't know about Downtown San Diego being nice in its time. Horton Plaza was utterly revolutionary when it was built and sparked a significant reinvestment in the core there.

Downtown Phoenix looks today what Downtown San Diego and Denver did 20 years ago.

[PHX31]

/\Except Denver and San Diego had way more historic building stock to work with.

[kingofleos]

Yeah, San Diego and San Francisco among most other big cities, had more to work with than us.

However, I still feel if we can just get a few more mid-rise buildings to connect from our central mid-town to downtown, our skyline will VASTLY improve. It already looks great from various angles when you include mid-town.

Imagine if they connected?

[plinko]

^Even if just the lots between Van Buren and Hance Park (3rd to 3rd) got filled up with 3-7 story buildings, DT Phoenix would be a vastly different place.

I'd actually rather see that than more office 20-25 story office towers.