The next GVRD rapid transit line?

[scryer]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

And Richmond wants something out to Steveston

Richmond needs to fix their single tracking mess first before they get anything else .

Totally moving into fantasy-land here: I would eventually like to see the resurrection of the Richmond streetcar in the form of a proper Richmond connector using modern LRT vehicles like the new Toronto streetcar models. But that's like 50+ years out...

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

Yes, while the SeaBus of course cannot be faster than a matching SkyTrain line would be, such a line is unlikely to be built due to the topography of the harbour. Thus, the SeaBus remains as an efficient and convenient direct service from "downtown" North Vancouver to downtown Vancouver. The fact that it is such a short ride to begin with also makes a case for retaining the ferry; at only 12 minutes by SeaBus, shaving a few minutes off with rapid transit won't justify the enormous cost. Factor in the tourist benefits and I'd be really surprised to see the ferry disappear any time soon.

Honestly a future combination of rapid connections to the North Shore (Skytrain + Seabus) would greatly control any capacity issues in the far future as they would provide symbiotic relief service to each other.

I've said it many times before on fantasy threads but building the north shore connection via Hastings, crossing 2nd narrows, etc; and also keeping the Seabus in operation would do wonders for rapid transportation options to convert East Van/North Shore private drivers into transit users.

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by scryer

Richmond needs to fix their single tracking mess first before they get anything else .

The provincial government was the one who oversaw the design of the project. City of Richmond had zero say. Translink was probably strongarmed into accepting the design.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by scryer

Honestly a future combination of rapid connections to the North Shore (Skytrain + Seabus) would greatly control any capacity issues in the far future as they would provide symbiotic relief service to each other.

I've said it many times before on fantasy threads but building the north shore connection via Hastings, crossing 2nd narrows, etc; and also keeping the Seabus in operation would do wonders for rapid transportation options to convert East Van/North Shore private drivers into transit users.

I think the guideway right of way issues on the North Shore side will kill any of the Hastings/Burnaby crossing options.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by DKaz

The provincial government was the one who oversaw the design of the project. City of Richmond had zero say. Translink was probably strongarmed into accepting the design.

I don't know if that is accurate. From what I can find, Richmond council was opposed to the elevated design on 3 Road, explored moving the elevated line to Minoru Boulevard, and even considered rejecting the project. The line was single-tracked on 3 Road in part to reduce the visual impact of the elevated line.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by casper

Perhaps use the same streetcar technology that would be deployed into Vancouver down Arbutus and the Fraser.

Oh God I hope that doesn't happen. Streetcars running in mixed traffic just don't have enough of an edge over frequent articulated buses to be worth the extra cost. Broadway has shown that you can increase service levels with articulated buses to the point where the next step up is a grade separated rapid transit line.

[casper]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Oh God I hope that doesn't happen. Streetcars running in mixed traffic just don't have enough of an edge over frequent articulated buses to be worth the extra cost. Broadway has shown that you can increase service levels with articulated buses to the point where the next step up is a grade separated rapid transit line.

Not saying run it in mixed traffic. The older interburn tracks that use to handle street cars are still in place.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by casper

Not saying run it in mixed traffic. The older interburn tracks that use to handle street cars are still in place.

the tracks are gone, but the space is still there.

Begin Science World -> 1st Av -> Arbutus Corridor -> Railway Bridge (partly removed) -> Garden City Rd -> Granville Ave -> Railway St -> End Steveston

it would all be outside of traffic, other than at crossings which are already limited since this was the old interurban ROW.

though that would be way into the future.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

I don't know if that is accurate. From what I can find, Richmond council was opposed to the elevated design on 3 Road, explored moving the elevated line to Minoru Boulevard, and even considered rejecting the project. The line was single-tracked on 3 Road in part to reduce the visual impact of the elevated line.

That's my understanding too.
Richmond wanted less shadowing on the street - and conveniently, single track was cheaper.
Not sure which was the initial driver - lower cost or Richmond objections, but there was also a single track section proposed near Capstan Station to reduce costs, but that was nixed.

[WarrenC12]

Adding a second track to the Richmond segment wouldn't be that hard as part of a Canada Line expansion.

If they did whatever the mess is at Lougheed station, they can do this.

[djmk]

if we are all dreaming....

Richmond to Tsawwassen ferry terminal and then Swartz Bay to downtown Victoria?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Most rapid transit isn't really compatible with ferries; Tsawwassen unloads about 1,600 passengers every hour, so a tram line would get 20-25 minutes of crush load ridership, then sit near-empty until the next ship. Commuter rail might work.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by djmk

if we are all dreaming....

Richmond to Tsawwassen ferry terminal and then Swartz Bay to downtown Victoria?

Cheaper to run a passenger ferry downtown to downtown...

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Most rapid transit isn't really compatible with ferries; Tsawwassen unloads about 1,600 passengers every hour, so a tram line would get 20-25 minutes of crush load ridership, then sit near-empty until the next ship. Commuter rail might work.

RapidBus, with as many dedicated lanes as possible, might be ideal for this. Capacity can easily be adjusted to meet the ferry schedules and the route can go directly to SkyTrain station(s).

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by casper

Not saying run it in mixed traffic. The older interburn tracks that use to handle street cars are still in place.

Ah, you said "to THE Fraser" - I mistakenly thought you were referring to Fraser St.

Although I still question the need for rail transit in the Arbutus corridor. One should make such transit investments because they're needed, not just because a convenient corridor exists. We have a long way to go before the Arbutus corridor will require more than articulated buses (which we're not even using yet).

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Ah, you said "to THE Fraser" - I mistakenly thought you were referring to Fraser St.

Although I still question the need for rail transit in the Arbutus corridor. One should make such transit investments because they're needed, not just because a convenient corridor exists. We have a long way to go before the Arbutus corridor will require more than articulated buses (which we're not even using yet).

Yeah I read it like that too.

We still need to plan for what kind of transit (RapidBus, some variety of on ground (not mixed with traffic on the street) rail, elevated / tunnelled Skytrain, etc) and on what corridors. There's a lot of planning before anything is built.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Probably best to do that by figuring out which arterials are going to be the big ones.

I think we can all agree that Broadway-Lougheed, Kingsway and Hastings are "primary" corridors by virtue of their capacity/density/importance - that's why they got the SkyTrains. Arbutus is too close to the Canada Line to be a primary (which means no SkyTrain), but it's got much more space and potential density than most "secondary" corridors, hence the constant mention of streetcars.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Probably best to do that by figuring out which arterials are going to be the big ones.

I think we can all agree that Broadway-Lougheed, Kingsway and Hastings are "primary" corridors by virtue of their capacity/density/importance - that's why they got the SkyTrains. Arbutus is too close to the Canada Line to be a primary (which means no SkyTrain), but it's got much more space and potential density than most "secondary" corridors, hence the constant mention of streetcars.

In response to that, I wonder if any of the other principal north-south corridors such as Main, Fraser, Knight, Victoria Drive, etc, would be in the running. I think not, but perhaps yes?

[Metro-One]

Can we keep this convo to the routes selected by TransLink for the next corridor? A lot of this talk is for the fantasy thread. Unless someone wants to start an “after the north shore” thread.

[jollyburger]

Well the original thread was any fantasy line after "Canada Line/Evergreen/Broadway" so wouldn't this be anything after "Broadway/UBC/Langley"?

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

The network effect benefits and raises traffic levels on all transit lines. You have to build a mix of intersecting lines in order to maximize the overall effectiveness of the transit system.

This is clearly demonstrated in the construction of the Broadway line, which will bridge the gap between the Broadway/Commercial Drive station o...
...
You can't build just radial lines, and in fact the best network is a grid system that allows trips between any two Skytrain stations to be made with no more than one transfer.

The thing is that they don't actually raise traffic levels on all lines. Bus lines parallel to the Canada line all fell in traffic after the Canada line opened because the Canada line drew traffic away from them.

Broadway facilitates cross town trips, but it's functionally a radial, since Central Broadway would be effectively part of the Downtown but for our downtown being defined by waterbodies rather than job concentrations. It's strength is that it connects to a lot of jobs in the centre of the region, rather than that people can make quicker transfer to the airport which is much more of a marginal use.

Now, it's true, you can't just build radial lines, but basically any region that's worth bothering with heavy transit is going to have an urban structure that draws a lot of people to a given point. Almost all rapid transit systems are, at the regional level, mostly radial, and while they may form something of a net through the very centre of the region, they're strongly biased towards the center. Most of the time those circumferentials get filled in with buses since they're lower demand, but particularly strong ones may warrant heavier investment. I just caution that this might not be the case. If you over invest in circumferential transit, you end up with the crushloads of the Yonge Subway