Largest Francophone cities in the world 2015

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

but the Euro is crashing. not worth as much as in 2011.

so is the canadian dollar, which has become a petro-currency like the rouble.

EURCAD dropped a lot february-april but i am not sure this is going to prove permanent.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

but the Euro is crashing. not worth as much as in 2011.

The Canadian dollar has also depreciated in value vis-à-vis the US dollar, so there is no "crash" of the euro compared to the Canadian dollar. In 2011, 1 euro was worth 1.37 Canadian dollar, whereas today 1 euro is worth 1.32 Canadian dollars. So the position of Montréal, Brussels, and Lyon wouldn't be very different today.

Originally Posted by kool maudit

EURCAD dropped a lot february-april but i am not sure this is going to prove permanent.

Yeah, the current low value of the euro is totally abnormal and won't probably last long. Currency markets have a way to always overreact which makes one almost miss the fixed Bretton Woods exchange rates of yesteryear.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

French is the predominant language of Montreal. Lingala is the predominant language of Kinshasa. Dioula is the vernacular of Abidjan. In my books, that makes Montreal still the second largest predominantly French-speaking city in the world.

Dioula is not the vernacular of Abidjan. I don't know where you got this! Dioula is the language of the Dioula people in southern Mali, Burkina Faso, and northern Ivory Coast. In southern Ivory Coast, it is clearly associated with "northerners", and there is lots of racism against the northerners. There are some Dioula immigrants in Abidjan of course, and I suppose they use Dioula with each other, but it's not the language of Abidjan, not anymore than Cantonese is the language of Vancouver.

In fact this is what an Ivorian of Abidjan had to say about Dioula (found this in a comment to an article about the Ramadan in Ivory Coast in 2014):

Pourquoi l'islam est devenue une affaire d'ethnie en Côte d'Ivoire. Dans les mosqué tout est en langue dioula. Comme si l'islam n'était fait que pour eux. Le baoulé ou le bété qui voit ça dans son pays, ne se sent plus concerné par l'islam. Fait comme les chrétien qui parle la langue national de la Côte d'Ivoire. C'est à dire le français. Car c'est cette langue qui nous lie. Si au Mali dans les mosqué on parle le Bambara. cest parce que c'est leur langue National. Mais la langue National de la Cöte d'Ivoire n'est ni bambara, ni le dioula. Mais la langue française. Alors que nos guide réligieux voyent ce cas. Surtout quand t'il sagit d'une mosqué à Abidjan. C'est très important mon méssage. Si vous voulez qu'un jour l'islam devienne la réligion des ivoiriens. Pour le moment c'est le christianisme qui est perçu comme la réligion des ivoiriens.

[...]

Samide Bohemid. Merci votre analyse. Moi je vis en Côte dIvoire depuis 30 ans et jai deja eu a voyager
A travers les différent region et village de la Côte d’ivoire. Je connais la mentalié ivoirienne. Je connais aussi les pays là ou on parle bambara.
En Côte dIvoire ils prêt de 70 langues ivoiriennes. Dons le dioula de represente qu’une monorité. Dans chaque famille ivoirienne en Côte d’Ivoire. Cest le français qui est parlé. Chez moi même. Ce même français je le parle avec mes enfants. Tu ne vera un gouro faire du Dioula sa langue. Jamais de la vie. De même qu’un Dioula ne fera jamais du gouro sa langue. C’est ça la réalité ivoirienne. Et nos autorité on pris la langue française comme notre langue national. A la télévision national. Ce ne n’est pas dioula on parle, ni bambara. Cest le français. Je ne sais pas où tu vis, mais Pour ceux qui vivent en Côte d’Ivoire le savent. Cen n’est pas moi qui l’est inventé.
et je suis fier de cette langue qui quelque part nous a apporté au plan développement.
Si parlé français était mauvais personne n’allait mettre son enfant à l’école.
Un ordinateur, un portable et autre. Cest pas la langue française.
Les pays qui on pour langue nationale cette langue dont tu parle, sont des pays en retard et pauvre,. Analphabé. Finalement c’est en Côte d’Ivoire là ou on parle le français quil viennent se chercher. Juste pour dire que la langue française s’est imposé à nous. Et pour promouvoir en Côte d’ivoire cette religion universelle qui est l’islam. Il ,faut le français. Chaque pays utilise ma ; mlangue majorité dans leur pays. Au Mali le Bambara,
Au Niger le haoussa. Pour nous c’est le français. Ça ne veu pas dire quon na pas notre culture

http://news.abidjan.net/h/504449.html

The vernacular in Abidjan is a street French that varies from close to standard French to as different from standard French as Joual in Québec (it's called "Nouchi" in Abidjan). Sometimes I even hear Nouchi slang words in the street in Paris (for example "la go", which means "la fille"/"the girl").

In Kinshasa the street language is Lingala, but as I said in a previous post, different languages are used in different areas of life. I think people here have this very Western attitude in considering that one has only one language, period. This is absolutely not the case in Africa. Africans are multilingual, and use their various languages in various contexts (for example in Kinshasa the same person will speak Kikongo at home with his family, Lingala in the street with street vendors or strangers, also with the police, but French at the office, in the administrations, or at the hospital; the church service can be conducted in French or in Lingala; newspapers are essentially French, radio programs are in their majority French, music is 90% Lingala, street ads on billboards are essentially French).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So this means Delhi and Manila are 1-2 for the largest English-speaking cities in the world?

Manila is primarily a Tagalog-speaking city. Tagalog is used everywhere, even at the higher levels. English is only a foreign language.

Delhi would resemble more some Francophone African cities: Hindi is the street language, but English is used at the higher levels. That being said, Hindi is more prevalent in Delhi than the African languages in those African cities: for example, lots of street signs, shop signs, ads are in Hindi, whereas in Francophone Africa they are almost 100% in French. Also, Hindi is partly used in writing by the administration, which is not the case in Francophone Africa (no one in the administrative offices of Kinshasa would write in Lingala, there are no forms in Lingala, no official website in Lingala, whereas you can find those in Hindi in Delhi, even though I believe English is more prevalent than Hindi in writing).

So not really comparable.

The situation in Francophone Africa is more comparable to, well, Anglophone Africa.

[mousquet]

You're probably being quite optimistic by calling all these places Francophone, Brisavoine...

While French must indeed be in common use in all these cities, especially among the educated population in Africa, I would call most of them bilingual. Even Brussels tends to be bilingual these days. And that's no problem. It's rather the opposite, always better to speak several languages.

The problem is no one could seriously deny that English has gradually become the standard business language throughout this entire Francophone world. Take people from Senegal for instance. If you asked them whether they'd rather have their kids learning either French or English, I'm not so sure French would be the most frequent answer today. It's not that English would be more pleasant than French in practice, the former is just more convenient for obviously much more spoken.

I think the Francophone world only lacks positivism when it comes to business and success in general, causing some harm to the practice of the language itself. That absolutely needs to be changed to further promote and root the language. It's not like the Africans can afford any French socialist party.

[Minato Ku]

Brussels is something like 80% 90% French speaking.

[GreaterMontréal]

The Canadian dollar has also depreciated in value vis-à-vis the US dollar,

the Euro lost 40% of its value to the USD, the CAD is now at 0.82USD

the CAD has lost value but not as much as the EUR. anyway .

[mousquet]

^ Bah, they most often like French better, but of course lots of them can speak Dutch as well.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

the Euro lost 40% of its value to the USD, the CAD is now at 0.82USD

mm, speaking of which, a devalued European currency may not be a best deal to Germany whose goods are specialized enough to be easily exported anyway, but it should significantly help France's balance of trade in getting better. It's perceived as a positive trend to the French economy.

[hipster duck]

How many people in Kinshasa are truly fluent in French?

By this logic, wouldn't Mumbai displace New York as the largest "Anglophone" metropolitan region?

EDIT: I see people have already raised this.

If there was good statistical record keeping in the developing world, it would be interesting to do lists of largest X-speaking city by mother tongue/primary language spoken at home.

Using these criteria, LA would probably not be the second or third largest English-speaking metro in the world, but it would probably be in the top 10 in the Hispanosphere, if not top 5.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

How many people in Kinshasa are truly fluent in French?

According to a survey in 2009, 21% of the people in Kinshasa said they could speak French very well, 43% said they could speak it quite well, 28% said they could speak it with some difficulty, and 8% said they could not speak it.

20% said they could write it very well, 39% said they could write it quite well, 28% said they could write it with some difficulty, and 13% said they could not write it.

French is the only school language in Kinshasa, so anyone who went to school can master the language.

In a more recent survey in 2012, 68.5% of the people in Kinshasa who are older than 15 said they could speak and understand French. 67.1% said they could read and write it.

[fflint]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Using these criteria, LA would probably not be the second or third largest English-speaking metro in the world, but it would probably be in the top 10 in the Hispanosphere, if not top 5.

Yes, many millions of people in greater Los Angeles speak Spanish at home. They might speak varying amounts of English outside the home--in school, at the supermarket, etc.--but in many ways, Spanish is their 'language of choice.' There are Spanish language newspapers, radio and television stations, billboards, etc. throughout the Southland. Those who speak Spanish only can get by in their daily lives without any trouble whatsoever, and for those who don't regularly speak the language, Spanish is like wallpaper in Los Angeles--you eventually stop noticing it, but regardless, it is all around you.

It would be interesting to classify cities based on the language people choose to speak when they are allowed to do so, as opposed to official languages imposed from the top down.

[chris08876]

I tend to think of language preference besides English in the U.S. as a byproduct of 1st generation residents. Usually by the 2nd or 3rd, assimilation has occurred and its mostly English. Thats kinda what I've noticed with my grandparents and parents. Grandparents came from Spain, so they spoke nothing but Spanish. Some English, but mostly Spanish. Dad was born here, and mom from Portugal, but they both rarely speak Spanish. Me on the other hand always English. I am fluent in Spanish, but society has generally made me always use English. I've noticed the same thing for the Chinese and Indian people I know. Parents tend to focus more on their language from the county of Origin, but their kids are completely different.

The unique thing about English are how many countries are using it, even if its not their main language. In todays world, the language of media and business is English. Globalization is giving preference to it too. Essentially Mandarin, English, and Spanish are the choices of the world in popularity and use.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by Minato Ku

Brussels is something like 80% 90% French speaking.

It's more like 58% French speaking, 20% bilingual (French/Flemish and French/other), 5% Flemish and 17% other.

And that's Brussels Capital Region, the metro area is probably 45% French, 45% Flemish and 10% other, give or take.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by chris08876

Essentially Mandarin, English, and Spanish are the choices of the world in popularity and use.

Actually French is more learned worldwide than either Mandarin or Spanish, and by a large margin.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

Not even close. More like 58% French speaking, 20% bilingual (French/Flemish and French/other), 5% Flemish and 17% other.

And that's Brussels Capital Region, the metro area is probably 45% French, 45% Flemish and 10% other, give or take.

The metro area is 2/3 French-speaking, 1/3 Dutch-speaking. French is the preferred language of communication of those "other", and their children assimilate in the French-speaking community, which is not surprising given that they come predominantly from Francophone Africa and from Latin countries.

In Brussels proper (Brussels-Capital), French is the language of communication of 90% of the population, and up to 95% of the population can speak it fluently. That's the findings of the Taalbarometer conducted by the Huis van het Nederlands in Brussels.

[ThePhun1]

On New Brisavoine's post, I wonder why that is. Spanish has a much bigger spread around the world, including directly next to the most dominant nation in the world. And you'd think Mandarin would be studied more intensely in Southeast Asia in places such as Korea, Japan and Vietnam.

[hipster duck]

It would be interesting to categorize cities like this:

1) Language is de facto/official and spoken by the overwhelming majority of the population in everyday use.
2) Language is one of the official languages, but spoken by a minority of the population in everyday use.
3) Language is not official or de facto, but is spoken by a significant minority or majority of the population.

So, in category 2 we have places like Kinshasa (French), Karachi (English), etc. Usually this is a legacy of colonialism.

Category 3 could be all over the place. Amsterdam (English), Montreal (English) and Los Angeles (Spanish) are all in this category, but each for very different reasons.

[tablemtn]

Mandarin takes too much effort for outsiders to learn. Reading it is hopeless unless you have a way of being educated for years in the study of Chinese characters. French and English are both a lot easier because they're non-tonal, and they can be adapted into creole forms without that much difficulty.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by ThePhun1

On New Brisavoine's post, I wonder why that is. Spanish has a much bigger spread around the world, including directly next to the most dominant nation in the world. And you'd think Mandarin would be studied more intensely in Southeast Asia in places such as Korea, Japan and Vietnam.

Mandarin is increasingly studied in Asia, which is why it reaches 30 million, a very high figure compared to how it was a few years ago.

As for Spanish, it has less of a spread in the world than French. French is all over Africa, whereas Spanish is virtually nowhere to be seen in Africa. French is the most studied foreign language in Anglophone Africa (several Nigerian states have even made it their 2nd official language). On the other hand, France is the 2nd most studied foreign language in... Spanish-speaking Latin America. So already that's two places where French is studied and Spanish isn't (one because it's the mother tongue, so obviously it's not learned at school as a foreign language, and the other because Spanish is almost entirely absent).

Then there is Europe where French is more studied than Spanish, and Europe is a continent with tens of millions of people learning foreign languages (as opposed to North America, where foreign languages are much less studied), so that adds lots of people to the tally.

Finally there is Asia where French is also more studied than Spanish.

I think only in the US basically (and Brazil also, and perhaps one or two smaller countries here and there) is Spanish more studied than French.