Let's talk about one-way streets

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

Originally Posted by HamiltonBoyInToronto

What a waste of money !!!! Just focus on the conversion of main to 2 way traffic and leave all this BS alone ... either they are doing this to postpone the conversion OR the mob is still in control of all city works and is making a killing on all this unnecessary extra work

There's a reason most of the improvements are on the south side, you know - the side that will stay that direction next year? 11 dead in 6 months is not something to split the hairs of cost over.

[HamiltonBoyInToronto]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

When we protested at City Hall, we demanded immediate changes to improve safety. I doubt you'd so comfortably repeat this comment at the grieving families of the maimed and murdered at the hand of this street.

Why do you decide what someone's life is worth? If anything, I don't think this is far enough before full two way conversion. Conversion could take 2 or 3 years. At the pace Hamilton's streets are going well see another 30 deaths from car drivers, and at least 5 of those on Main.

Waste of money? That couldn't be further from the truth, this is one of the smartest uses of money Hamilton has done in a long fucking time.

I think you misunderstood me ... I want this street completely overhauled immediately... not some small changes now and some major changes POSSIBLY down the road in the future
This road is a killer highway running through our downtown and I use it every single day (I live off of it ) I am deeply saddened every time I hear of an incident and want better change NOW !

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by HamiltonBoyInToronto

I think you misunderstood me ... I want this street completely overhauled immediately... not some small changes now and some major changes POSSIBLY down the road in the future
This road is a killer highway running through our downtown and I use it every single day (I live off of it ) I am deeply saddened every time I hear of an incident and want better change NOW !

I understood you but it's not as simple as you're making it seem. You can't make these kinds of changes overnight.

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

Even if the roads department had this one project to focus on and nothing else, and even if they could draft up a design and get it approved that leaves everybody happy overnight, it would still take time to install it! Two directions mean twice as many traffic signals which need to be bought, built, shipped, and installed. Litres upon litres of new road paint, signage of every sort, the list goes on.

The design is what will take the longest, because of all the needs they need to satisfy. What about left turns? What about bus lanes? What about bike lanes? What about wider sidewalks? If they just put a yellow line down the centre of the road and said "figure it out lol" you'd be complaining about the city moving too fast and without thinking.

[HamiltonBoyInToronto]

Yes I understand... Hamilton takes 40years to build small expressways and even longer to build a single track of LRT ...we get all that ... but all the "changes " that were made on Main Street recently have not done a damn thing about people speeding and drag racing . Taking one lane out and making some marks on the pavement don't make in impact on people's ability to speed down this highway... the changes that were made to king street between Wellington and gore Park, however, were brilliant and it is still one way traffic...

[TheRitsman]

You can hate bureaucracy as much as you like, it won't change that road reconstructions, road redesigns and redeployment, purchase and engineering of a new road takes time.

Additionally road diets do change pedestrian, cyclist and driver injury and deaths. So you're wrong. I don't claim to have a degree in transportation engineering though it was a class I took with my minor in Geography, but facts show this still make it safer.

[Crapht]

Not sure when it started but Queen st two-way conversion between Main and King has begun.

[Innsertnamehere]

The draft 2023 capital budget includes the conversion of Main St to two ways between Wentworth and the Delta in 2024, and between Wentworth and the 403 in 2025. Appears to include a full resurfacing of the street as well judging by the amount of capital allocated to it (around $14 million for the whole thing).

It also shows the remainder of Wilson St between Victoria and Sherman as being resurfaced and converted to 2-way in 2024.

Both will do well to help with westbound traffic capacity as King St shuts down for LRT construction.

Also - we are already seeing the effects of Horwath as mayor in the draft budget. Up until now council has been implementing a 0.5% annual increase in taxes to fund increased road maintenance, resulting in $5 million more annually spent on road maintenance. The 2023 budget now doubles that to 1% annually, resulting in over $10 million annually in additional maintenance. Hamilton is estimated to underinvest in it's roads by about $100 million annually (spends about 75 million annually, should be spending about $175 million), so this means the shortfall would be ended in about a decade. Even then though, that would just stem the bleeding. Average road condition wouldn't be improving, simply just wouldn't be getting worse any longer.

Expect to see a lot more road construction in the future.

Other notable resurfacing projects in the next few years:

2023:
York / Cannon / Wilson - Dundurn to James on Cannon and Catherine on Wilson
Upper Wentworth - LINC to Mohawk (beside Lime Ridge Mall)
Dewitt - Barton to HWY 8 (delayed from this year)

2024:
Golf Links Rd, Stone Church to 403
Upper Centennial, Geen Mountain to Rymal
Nebo - Stone Church to Rymal
Mud St - Winterberry to Paramount
Highway 8 widening, Dewitt to Fruitland
Fruitland Rd, Barton to Hwy8
Grays Rd, Barton to QEW Bridge
Fennell - Garth to Upper James
Scenic - Chateau to Upper Paradise

2025:
Barton - Sherman to Kenilworth
Lawrence Rd - Gage to Kenilworth
Kenilworth Access
Upper James - Fennell to Mohawk
Upper Paradise - Scenic to Sanatorium
Mohawk - McNiven to LINC
Garth - Stone Church to LINC
West 5th - Stone Church to Rymal
Downbound Claremont Access

[TheRitsman]

Thank God on the roads. The roads in this city are noticeably worse than other cities. Wish they would have been even more agressive, just by a bit like a 1.5% increase.

[Innsertnamehere]

Hamilton is comically far behind the rest of southern Ontario in terms of road conditions. Toronto used to be pretty bad as well, but the one good thing that came out of the Rob Ford mayorality was he actually significantly increased road resurfacing spending, and a decade later it's starting to show.

The difference you always see crossing a municipal boundary from Hamilton to another municipality is stark. The road instantly improves in not only pavement quality but usually in design as well (and the speed limit usually increases in the case of rural roads, too). *especially* into Halton Region, which generally has excellent road maintenance standards. Niagara, Haldimand, etc aren't quite as good but still substantially better than Hamilton.

[Canuck905]

Makes sense they've waited. No sense repaving those roads when you still have massive trucks driving through. Hopefully this changes when the new by-laws and signage for the truck route comes into force.

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by Canuck905

Makes sense they've waited. No sense repaving those roads when you still have massive trucks driving through. Hopefully this changes when the new by-laws and signage for the truck route comes into force.

I agree. I pushed for removal of the truck routes from the lower city for a handful of safety related reasons such as pedestrianizing downtown, cycling, and general atmosphere of downtown not being designed for trucks and their turning radius (just saw a large truck this morning drive over the sidewalk). But a big benefit is the tax savings and general road benefit. We will see a large improvement in the wear and tear of the roads that the largest trucks have been banned from, and that will save us loads of money (think $14 in savings for example every ten or 15 years for resurfacing work).

[Innsertnamehere]

It'll definitely reduce wear and tear a lot, but most arterial roads need to get repaved every 10-15 years or so regardless. King St east of the RHVP to Centennial is in pretty rough condition despite not having a large amount of truck traffic already and it was last rebuilt in 2009, for example. It's currently scheduled to get repaved in 2026, so a 17-year service life. And honestly, it should probably have been more like a 12 year service life.

Local roads are what can last a lot longer, usually 30-40 years between resurfacings. Not having trucks helps, but a street like Main with the huge volumes of cars and buses which will still use it will still need regular work.

Plus removing them from downtown will increase wear and tear on other roads where they will be instead like Burlington St and the RHVP / LINC.

Honestly Hamilton gets screwed by having to maintain a good chunk of it's freeway network itself. It costs millions annually to maintain the RHVP and Linc, and in most other municipalities in Ontario those would be provincially maintained. Kitchener for example has it's entire freeway network provincially maintained, which saves an absolute ton of money for the municipality as a decent chunk of road mileage in the city is done on roads not maintained by the municipality. Hamilton is looking at some big bills to pay for widening the highways towards the end of the decade too, which would also normally be a provincial expense.

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

It'll definitely reduce wear and tear a lot, but most arterial roads need to get repaved every 10-15 years or so regardless. King St east of the RHVP to Centennial is in pretty rough condition despite not having a large amount of truck traffic already and it was last rebuilt in 2009, for example. It's currently scheduled to get repaved in 2026, so a 17-year service life. And honestly, it should probably have been more like a 12 year service life.

Local roads are what can last a lot longer, usually 30-40 years between resurfacings. Not having trucks helps, but a street like Main with the huge volumes of cars and buses which will still use it will still need regular work.

Plus removing them from downtown will increase wear and tear on other roads where they will be instead like Burlington St and the RHVP / LINC.

Honestly Hamilton gets screwed by having to maintain a good chunk of it's freeway network itself. It costs millions annually to maintain the RHVP and Linc, and in most other municipalities in Ontario those would be provincially maintained. Kitchener for example has it's entire freeway network provincially maintained, which saves an absolute ton of money for the municipality as a decent chunk of road mileage in the city is done on roads not maintained by the municipality. Hamilton is looking at some big bills to pay for widening the highways towards the end of the decade too, which would also normally be a provincial expense.

You're forgetting a key element of the resurfacing though, roads designed for larger trucks need to be built differently, and most importantly, mor expensively. Now that the roads are no longer truck routes, they don't have to be built with the same engineering in mind to withstand the daily run of trucks. We can also start to use better quality asphalt that lasts longer. Look at Burlington with is better road quality and better maintenance. They are getting 20+ years out of their major arterials. Upper Middle in front of MM Robinson is one of the worst roads in the city to my recollection from living there, but it's better than most Hamilton roads, and it's not be resurfaced since at least before 2007. The street view pictures in 2007 show that cracks were already being filled with tar to reduce further wear.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

You're forgetting a key element of the resurfacing though, roads designed for larger trucks need to be built differently, and most importantly, mor expensively. Now that the roads are no longer truck routes, they don't have to be built with the same engineering in mind to withstand the daily run of trucks. We can also start to use better quality asphalt that lasts longer. Look at Burlington with is better road quality and better maintenance. They are getting 20+ years out of their major arterials. Upper Middle in front of MM Robinson is one of the worst roads in the city to my recollection from living there, but it's better than most Hamilton roads, and it's not be resurfaced since at least before 2007. The street view pictures in 2007 show that cracks were already being filled with tar to reduce further wear.

Definitely.

Bus routes will probably still need to be built to a higher standard. There are plenty of places where there are the short "double ruts" at bus stops and while they're much smoother than cargo or other trucks, they're still quite heavy vehicles.

LRT will certainly take the pressure off some of the east-west bus corridors in the lower city. Though there may still need to be a 'local' service (probably mostly on Main) along the central corridor.

I also wonder if part of the difference in road condition and capital funding is due to differing budget pressures municipalities face. E.g., if Hamilton has to spend a greater proportion of its budget on transit and social services than Halton, it has relatively less for its roads.

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

Definitely.

Bus routes will probably still need to be built to a higher standard. There are plenty of places where there are the short "double ruts" at bus stops and while they're much smoother than cargo or other trucks, they're still quite heavy vehicles.

LRT will certainly take the pressure off some of the east-west bus corridors in the lower city. Though there may still need to be a 'local' service (probably mostly on Main) along the central corridor.

I also wonder if part of the difference in road condition and capital funding is due to differing budget pressures municipalities face. E.g., if Hamilton has to spend a greater proportion of its budget on transit and social services than Halton, it has relatively less for its roads.

Hamilton actually spends pretty low on per Capita basis for transit. I'll see if I can find the Ontario graph back.

https://twitter.com/GraphicMatt/stat...nYVf7HeYA&s=19

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

Hamilton actually spends pretty low on per Capita basis for transit. I'll see if I can find the Ontario graph back.

Per capita is one thing. But in total, or as a proportion of the total budget, is what I was getting at.
(not surprised Hamilton lags per rider against Ontario "peers" - ridership has been stagnant!)

Haven't looked at past budgets for any of the area municipalities.


Post-pandemic (post?) recovery of transit will be one of the most interesting things to follow, for me.

[Innsertnamehere]

Hamilton's big problem is that a very low percentage of it's tax base is commercial, which is taxed at a much higher rate. Gives them a lot less funding room than a municipality like Burlington which has some of the highest commercial assessment rates in the province (It's a big reason Burlington has such low taxes - there is a ton of employment uses in the city). Hamilton has famously high taxes already - so the city has been left constantly trying to find ways to save money. Not spending money on roads was an easy way out for decades, as the network's overall condition slowly declined, and was never really upgraded to modern standards either. It's now at the point where it's causing problems with terrible conditions and well below average design standards.

Hamilton's roads department is also terribly run as we saw with the auditor report from a year or two ago. They don't properly maintain the assets they have and don't replace them soon enough when they are due for work.

To get Hamilton's road network to a state like Burlington's, it's going to take hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars for full profile rebuilds, resurfacings, changes in management practices, reconstructions of many rural streets to better standards, etc.

[LikeHamilton]

The two-way converstion of Queen Street between Main and King will open today, Tuesday November 22 at noon.

[TheHonestMaple]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Hamilton's big problem is that a very low percentage of it's tax base is commercial, which is taxed at a much higher rate. Gives them a lot less funding room than a municipality like Burlington which has some of the highest commercial assessment rates in the province (It's a big reason Burlington has such low taxes - there is a ton of employment uses in the city). Hamilton has famously high taxes already - so the city has been left constantly trying to find ways to save money. Not spending money on roads was an easy way out for decades, as the network's overall condition slowly declined, and was never really upgraded to modern standards either. It's now at the point where it's causing problems with terrible conditions and well below average design standards.

Hamilton's roads department is also terribly run as we saw with the auditor report from a year or two ago. They don't properly maintain the assets they have and don't replace them soon enough when they are due for work.

To get Hamilton's road network to a state like Burlington's, it's going to take hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars for full profile rebuilds, resurfacings, changes in management practices, reconstructions of many rural streets to better standards, etc.

So basically the roads are currently in such a bad state of repair it would actually be financially impossible now to fix them?