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  #61  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2017, 6:35 PM
eschaton eschaton is online now
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
It's shocking that on a vaguely architectural-focused urban forum, opinions like these are still commonplace in 2017.
Tastes differ. And AFAIK polls of the general public not schooled in architecture have repeatedly shown a majority of people prefer traditional and neo-traditional design to modernist forms.

That's not to say that modernism can't be done well. But just because something is the paradigm in the professional world doesn't make it objectively better.
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  #62  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2017, 6:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
My country and those in Scandinavia or the Nordics have in common a number of towns and cities in their northern reaches that are dominated by resource extraction industries.

One thing I find is how unattractive most of our places are in comparison to theirs. (My wife is from one such place in northern Canada.)

It seems as though in Canada the attitude is or was "let's pull as much stuff as we can out of here and get the hell out ASAP, so no need to make anything look nice". Everything just looks temporary and ramshackle, as if the whole town could just shut down tomorrow and they'd pack it all up. Which is what they have sometimes done, it's true.


The differences become even more stark using Arctic comparisons too.

Iqualuit, Nunavut, Canada: https://goo.gl/maps/RRhoVznhVn62

Alta, Finnmark, Norway: https://goo.gl/maps/gXZkGtPeHZr

The latter is about 6 degrees further north, although would have at least a considerably better climate (and trees).

Even a smaller town in Greenland looks a bit less ramshackle the territorial capital of Nunavut, and has just a harsh a climate. Sisimuit, Grenland: https://goo.gl/maps/bFJuswVSWDM2
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  #63  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2017, 6:43 PM
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^^Don't think it has Streetview but how do you judge this "town" compares to all those:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMurdo_Station
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  #64  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2017, 7:07 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
IIRC nearly all of the high density blocks in Milwaukee are in the Mexican neighborhoods on the south side.
here's a map of milwaukee population density by census tracts.

orange is 1,000 - 9,999 ppsm
brown is 10,000 - 24,999 ppsm
dark brown is 25,000+ ppsm



as you can see, the heavily mexican SW side does make up a significant chunk of milwaukee's denser areas, but it's hardly "nearly all", or even most.

in fact, the very highest densities in the city are actually found in tracts on the east side, some of which top out at over 35,000 ppsm, nudged upwards by numerous lakefront residential highrises.
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  #65  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2017, 10:50 AM
Jonesy55 Jonesy55 is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Yeah, at least Germany built in a walkable, transit-oriented, human-scaled format. It isn't awful.

Though to my sensibilities it's ugly and kinda dystopian. Here's a typical block in the middle of Essen, Germany, though every big city in former West Germany has the same general look-

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4556...7i13312!8i6656

I mean, compare that streetscape to that of any French, Italian or Spanish city. German cities aren't looking too hot.
French, Spanish and Italian cities also have their fair share of meh utilitarian blocks, it's not as if their urban areas are universally beautiful.
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  #66  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2017, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
French, Spanish and Italian cities also have their fair share of meh utilitarian blocks, it's not as if their urban areas are universally beautiful.
I can't think of any French, Spanish and Italian cities with cores renmotely as ugly as Essen (or really any German city).

I mean, for Italy, the biggest cities are Rome, Milan, Naples, Turin, Palermo, Genoa, Bologna, Florence. Which of those cities has an ugly, 1950's era core?

I think Milan is the ugliest of the bunch, and its center is glorious compared to a Frankfurt or Stuttgart or Cologne. Granted, Italy has many ugly neighborhoods, but they're peripheral. City centers are usually fantastic.
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  #67  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2017, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I can't think of any French, Spanish and Italian cities with cores renmotely as ugly as Essen (or really any German city).

I mean, for Italy, the biggest cities are Rome, Milan, Naples, Turin, Palermo, Genoa, Bologna, Florence. Which of those cities has an ugly, 1950's era core?

I think Milan is the ugliest of the bunch, and its center is glorious compared to a Frankfurt or Stuttgart or Cologne. Granted, Italy has many ugly neighborhoods, but they're peripheral. City centers are usually fantastic.
Behold the gift of carpetbombing. Those were the days before collateral damage...
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  #68  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2017, 1:03 PM
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OK, if we are only talking about city centres then they are mostly more attractive in Italy, Spain, France. There are plenty of more ugly areas outside the cores though if we are talking about the whole city.

There's always Le Havre though if you want a concrete 1950s core in France.
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  #69  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2017, 2:01 PM
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Originally Posted by montréaliste View Post
Behold the gift of carpetbombing. Those were the days before collateral damage...
Stuttgart:



Frankfurt:



Cologne:

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  #70  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2017, 7:08 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Tastes differ. And AFAIK polls of the general public not schooled in architecture have repeatedly shown a majority of people prefer traditional and neo-traditional design to modernist forms.

That's not to say that modernism can't be done well. But just because something is the paradigm in the professional world doesn't make it objectively better.

I wouldn't put much value in the architectural tastes of the average American.

But sure, good old ornate buildings are fantastic. But let's be realistic here, the modern interpretation of that as it's built across most of North America usually looks a little more like this:


https://www.pinterest.com/explore/mall-facade/


http://www.rickshapirobroker.com/Gra...es-Houses.html


If you're going to build suburban shit, might as well at least make it look cool (and a little more honest & optimistic) like they did in the 50s-70s:


https://www.pinterest.com/pin/529806343648216190/


http://forum.savingplaces.org/blogs/...odern-heritage
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  #71  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2017, 7:45 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
It's shocking that on a vaguely architectural-focused urban forum, opinions like these are still commonplace in 2017.
People generally don't hold midcentury buildings in high regard. Is this not obvious?

My local school district is an example, in a city very interested in preservation. When a school is renovated, the 1920s stuff is renovated and the 1960s stuff is generally torn down and replaced.
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  #72  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2017, 7:54 PM
eschaton eschaton is online now
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
I wouldn't put much value in the architectural tastes of the average American.
On one hand, I understand this. I mean, it's not like Bud Light is good beer, or pop-country is good music.

On the other hand, there is a tension in architecture. What I mean is, since architecture is an art form, it can and should elicit all kinds of different feelings from people. Just like a good painting may in fact disturb someone, a good building doesn't have to be aesthetically pleasing to be artistic. At the same time, architecture is built for a consumer base in the modern era, with functionality seen as key. If a building does not elicit positive feelings from people when viewed and utilized, in some fundamental manner the architect has failed.

Regardless, my point is that to the extent that architecture has coalesced around styles that those who are unschooled in architecture dislike, it is somewhat of a failure. Not a failure of art, but a failure of craft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
But sure, good old ornate buildings are fantastic. But let's be realistic here, the modern interpretation of that as it's built across most of North America usually looks a little more like this:
Yes, emphasis on usually, as 90% of everything is shit. One need only look to the Hed Kandi thread elsewhere on the forum to see that new traditional can be done well. On the flipside, I could just as easily post links to dozens of modernist-style monstrosities clad in metal paneling, and colored with a limited palette of off-white, rust and gray.

However, I'm not saying that I think there should be 100% historically accurate buildings only. But many, many historic styles were revivals and modifications of earlier styles - something which pretty much ended with modernism. I think this is a shame. To use a musical analogy, just because we developed electronic music, it did not displace folk from being a valid art form - one which can be done in either straight-ahead historic style or with a myriad of contemporary influences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
If you're going to build suburban shit, might as well at least make it look cool (and a little more honest & optimistic) like they did in the 50s-70s:
Mid-century modern worked I think because although it was a nationwide movement, it was a conscious effort to create a "vernacular" of sorts. Vernacular styles are important in architecture because they help to develop a sense of place to an area. The character of regions, cities, or even neighborhoods is in large part defined by their built form - the use of material, the massing of the structures, and yes, their style of ornament. While MCM was a nationwide style, it was of its time and became classically identifiable for that reason. Nothing since then has moved much outside of the realm of "starchitecture" - certainly not down into the area of home design.
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  #73  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2017, 8:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
My country and those in Scandinavia or the Nordics have in common a number of towns and cities in their northern reaches that are dominated by resource extraction industries.

One thing I find is how unattractive most of our places are in comparison to theirs. (My wife is from one such place in northern Canada.)

It seems as though in Canada the attitude is or was "let's pull as much stuff as we can out of here and get the hell out ASAP, so no need to make anything look nice". Everything just looks temporary and ramshackle, as if the whole town could just shut down tomorrow and they'd pack it all up. Which is what they have sometimes done, it's true.

For the sake of comparison:

Canada
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.06088...7i13312!8i6656

Finland
https://www.google.ca/maps/@62.72690...7i13312!8i6656
Meh, Cochrane, Ontario isn't even that bad. It's still got a nice, fine-scaled main street (if you pan the view to the right) with some historic buildings. I get what you're saying, but it gets far more offensive out west or up north. As for why we have this utilitarian, shack-like aesthetic, well, our climate is generally much harsher than Scandinavia's (as the early settlers to Dawson City quickly figured out) and Canada is much newer. A lot of these places weren't really settled until the 1930s and 1940s, and couple that with the function-over-form in the face of harsh climate, it makes sense.

Also, I don't really get the allure of Finnish architecture. That streetview you gave looked incredibly bland. From an urban design perspective, it's more walkable, and therefore, perhaps more pleasant to live in, but aesthetically I found it as bland as my Alberta and NWT examples. But overall, I find Nordic architecture uninteresting (Greenland and parts of Denmark being the exception). Berlin looks better than Helsinki, to me (and I for one echo others in saying a lot of German cities look unfortunately shabby).

Quote:
Originally Posted by niwell View Post
The differences become even more stark using Arctic comparisons too.

Iqualuit, Nunavut, Canada: https://goo.gl/maps/RRhoVznhVn62

Alta, Finnmark, Norway: https://goo.gl/maps/gXZkGtPeHZr

The latter is about 6 degrees further north, although would have at least a considerably better climate (and trees).

Even a smaller town in Greenland looks a bit less ramshackle the territorial capital of Nunavut,
and has just a harsh a climate. Sisimuit, Grenland: https://goo.gl/maps/bFJuswVSWDM2
This is true, however, it does speak to the age differences.
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  #74  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2017, 8:34 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
If you're going to build suburban shit, might as well at least make it look cool (and a little more honest & optimistic) like they did in the 50s-70s:
Eichler classics:










https://www.google.com/search?q=Eich...d_m4Aq4svvOfM:

Besides tthe Bay Area, Eichler built a lot in Palm Springs.
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  #75  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2017, 8:58 PM
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  #76  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2017, 8:59 PM
Jonesy55 Jonesy55 is offline
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Originally Posted by PHL10 View Post
Stuttgart:



Frankfurt:



Cologne:

Warsaw was far worse than any of those in 1945 but they chose to rebuild the Old Town in its previous form rather than going for a crappy functionalist 1950s/60s concrete approach.

The UK made some huge mistakes in that era, Coventry apparently had a very attractive medieval core before WWII but after it was trashed by bombing it was rebuilt in an autocentric 1950s concrete mess with multi-lane roads strangling the core and today the city centre is a pretty depressing place to be.
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  #77  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2017, 9:00 PM
jaxg8r1 jaxg8r1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
Eichler classics:










https://www.google.com/search?q=Eich...d_m4Aq4svvOfM:

Besides tthe Bay Area, Eichler built a lot in Palm Springs.
Robert Rummer built these in Oregon as well (same architects, etc). In fact I live in one
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  #78  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2017, 9:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
People generally don't hold midcentury buildings in high regard. Is this not obvious?

My local school district is an example, in a city very interested in preservation. When a school is renovated, the 1920s stuff is renovated and the 1960s stuff is generally torn down and replaced.
Not sure what you mean here but Midcentury Modern residential architecture is very hot now. Or do you just mean governmental/institutional buildings?
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  #79  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2017, 9:09 PM
ChargerCarl ChargerCarl is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Maybe nicely was too strong a word. But better than Japan anyway.

1950s/1960s architecture in general was a dire time, but at least outside of the U.S. it was built in a more walkable fashion.
This blows my mind. Mid-century is by far my favorite architectural movement. Only issue is that its usually auto-oriented.

But hey, everyones got their own opinion.
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  #80  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2017, 9:11 PM
ChargerCarl ChargerCarl is offline
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I also think Japanese/Asian cities are incredibly beautiful and find European cities boring in comparison. I'm definitely an outlier on this board.
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