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  #81  
Old Posted May 24, 2017, 3:53 PM
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^^^and then we're back to square one. a quiet don't ask don't tell type of enforcement is the only thing I see as reasonable. not aggressively pursuing single individuals for simply being out of doors should happen but NOT legitimizing camping thru official statements and policy. the moment you do that, is like saying free beer and not expecting anybody to show up. also, when I say camping, I mean, setting up shop for more than a night. that's what people have done in Portland. there were some hobos that even got ahold of gas grills and set up a fourth of july style encampment right across from downtown. remember, there are hobos (travel to work), tramps (travel to avoid work) and bums (homeless, refuse to work because they want to drink). portland is mostly full of bums and tramps. were also the only urban game in town for the state, so every out of work tweaker from some washed up logging town eventually rolls thru here too.
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  #82  
Old Posted May 24, 2017, 3:54 PM
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^^Well, it has stood up for over a decade now. The case, as I recall, had to do with an impromptu tent city under an elevated freeway. The judge said the city couldn't clear it out without telling the inhabitants where they could camp.

It wasn't said the state couldn't proscribe certain areas. What was said is it can't proscribe EVERY area, that is not say "Since you can't live here, here's where you can," since everybody has to live somewhere.
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  #83  
Old Posted May 24, 2017, 4:05 PM
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miami huh? there was probably some residual guilt from the tent city all those cuban folks were living in back the 80s. unless that's the case you are talking about. I think the county work farm is great solution. bring that back. offer people a job with a wage and place to stay. that's a start. were $%^& spoiled in this country, even poor people feel entitled. we help out at a xmas charity every year that sponsors families. immigrant families always want soap, socks, maybe a basketball for their kids. american families will request ipods, jordans, laptops, flat sceen tvs.....this country could learn a few lessons in humility too.
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  #84  
Old Posted May 24, 2017, 4:19 PM
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Emathias - thank you for sharing. Amazing no private insurers would help. The city or county didn't have public providers whom they would refer him to upon discharge from inpatient psychiatric stays? Of course getting him to go to those appointments is another story.

Also good comments by Pedestrian. Pdxtex no offense and I'm sure you mean well but as the replies have shown you have no idea what you are talking about. I also worked in mental health for many years and you are getting schooled in the replies. I hope you consider what they are saying
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  #85  
Old Posted May 24, 2017, 4:25 PM
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Sheesh. Reading this thread makes most American cities sound like scenes of Fear The Walking Dead.
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  #86  
Old Posted May 24, 2017, 4:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Eightball View Post
Emathias - thank you for sharing. Amazing no private insurers would help. The city or county didn't have public providers whom they would refer him to upon discharge from inpatient psychiatric stays? Of course getting him to go to those appointments is another story.

Also good comments by Pedestrian. Pdxtex no offense and I'm sure you mean well but as the replies have shown you have no idea what you are talking about. I also worked in mental health for many years and you are getting schooled in the replies. I hope you consider what they are saying
i have and I agree with many points but what's happening in portland defies normal trends. feel free to come to portland then and see who is squatting on our sidewalks. its not one flew over the cuckoos nest, its extremely aggressive mix of gutter punks, anarchists, antifa weirdos, juggalo types and addicts with no intention of societal assimilation. some of this is probably fallout from the election too. antifa and their alt right counterparts have been going at it since November. white people rioting.! where do you live? if you say the suburbs or some place east of Denver then you probably have no idea what i'm talking about. we're a thru point on that circuit and some just decided to stay because no one will stand up to them....that's being a bully....also, west coast mayors have conflated two separate social agendas that have very little influence on one another. combining rising real estate prices and homelessness together as a "housing emergency"...clearly im not an expert in mental health but i've studied public policy for 20 years so I have some ideas of what works and doesn't. legalizing camping does not instill order, it invites chaos. besides, lots of markets have quickly appreciating prices, but not our street problems. one does not usually beget the other. so lets review. Portland 2017, high home prices, high political instability, high street population of social sabateurs, lax policing, little money for actual people who need help, pissed off populous, ineffective city policies, neighbors taking things into their hands, burning bum camps.....dude it sounds like mad max.....
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  #87  
Old Posted May 24, 2017, 5:21 PM
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Originally Posted by pdxtex View Post
miami huh? there was probably some residual guilt from the tent city all those cuban folks were living in back the 80s. unless that's the case you are talking about. I think the county work farm is great solution. bring that back. offer people a job with a wage and place to stay. that's a start. were $%^& spoiled in this country, even poor people feel entitled. we help out at a xmas charity every year that sponsors families. immigrant families always want soap, socks, maybe a basketball for their kids. american families will request ipods, jordans, laptops, flat sceen tvs.....this country could learn a few lessons in humility too.
Here's more about what I'm talking about:

Quote:
Miami moves to overturn court-ordered homeless rights
SEPTEMBER 11, 2013 7:29 PM
By CHARLES RABIN

. . . city leaders and members of Miami’s Downtown Development Authority made true on a promise to ask a federal court to modify a decades-old ruling that gave the city’s homeless the right to conduct “life-sustaining” acts — such as lighting cooking fires in public parks, sleeping on sidewalks and urinating in public — without getting arrested . . . .

Wednesday’s court filing was the newest chapter in a DDA plan that began in April to remove the 500 homeless people that continue to congregate around downtown Miami.

At the time, city commissioners voted unanimously to petition the courts to alter the landmark settlement in the 1988 Pottinger v. Miami case. In that case, 5,000 homeless people and the American Civil Liberties Union sued the city, arguing that the police practice of sweeping them off the streets and dumping their belongings for loitering, sleeping on sidewalks and other minor offenses was unconstitutional.

The case reached a negotiated settlement, or consent decree, in 1998 in which police could no longer arrest homeless people for “involuntary, harmless acts” without first offering them a bed in a shelter.
It also led to the creation of the county’s Homeless Trust, which six times has been recognized on a national level as a model for dealing with homelessness. The trust, which in the past decade has been responsible for lowering the homeless population countywide to 800 from about 8,000, spends $55 million a year in housing and services for the homeless.

But the DDA, led by Chairman Marc Sarnoff, who also chairs the city commission, says that current number of 800 chronically homeless is actually double what it was four years ago. The DDA wants the remaining homeless removed from the doorways and sidewalks of downtown, where they say businesses are being hurt, and locals and tourists are being harassed. They say the aggressive panhandling by the homeless is scaring people who live and work downtown and families attending Miami Heat games. The DDA, composed mainly of local business leaders and business owners, fosters economic growth of the downtown business area . . . .

If the Pottinger settlement is modified as the DDA is asking, it would, for the first time in 15 years, give police authority to arrest the homeless if they refuse a shelter bed. The beds aren’t available now, which is why the city and the DDA are trying to force the trust’s hand into spending the money to purchase 350 new ones. The trust voted in early July to buy 85 additional beds after the city awarded it $260,000.

“What they want to do is sweep people off the street,” Book said. And the only way to arrest them is to have beds available at night. I call it the Sarnoff arrest-and-release plan. All you do is sweep them in and out.”

On Wednesday, the city petitioned the federal court to undo several parts of Pottinger, including those covering public nudity, fires in parks, obstructing sidewalks, littering, and the ability to build a temporary structure in the park.

As it did in 1988, the ACLU of Florida intends to counter any arguments the DDA and its supporters present to try to change the settlement, said Maria Kayanan, associate legal director of the ACLU of Florida.

“There are multiple issues with the changes they seek,” she said. “Nothing has changed that would soften the ACLU’s position.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...#storylink=cpy
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...le1954891.html

Here's what the ACLU says about it today:

Quote:
2. What did the Court hold in Pottinger?

After hearing evidence of the City’s conduct, federal district court Judge C. Clyde Atkins ruled in 1992 that “the City has used the arrest process for the ulterior purpose of driving the homeless from public areas.” Earlier, in 1990, he had enjoined the City from deliberately destroying homeless people’s property; in 1991 had held the City in contempt for violating that order. He further found that homeless people were not choosing to be homeless, but had no choice.

Judge Atkins found that criminalizing homelessness violates these constitutional rights:

The City’s arrests of Plaintiffs for harmless acts in public that fell within misdemeanor ordinances violated the Eighth Amendment’s ban against punishment based on status;
The City’s overbroad enforcement of misdemeanor ordinances that homeless persons necessarily violate while living in public violated the Plaintiffs’ right to procedural due process;
The City’s arrests of homeless persons denied Plaintiffs equal protection because those arrests unjustifiably impinged on their fundamental right to travel; and
The City’s unjustifiable seizure and destruction of the Plaintiffs’ property violated the Fourth and Fifth Amendments.
As a temporary matter, Judge Atkins ordered the establishment of two downtown “safe zones” where homeless people could be without fear of arrest for their harmless, life-sustaining conduct. He further enjoined the City from destroying their property and ordered it to abide by its own written procedure for handling personal property found in public.

3. Is the Pottinger decision still valid today?

Yes.
The City appealed Judge Atkins’ ruling to the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals. The Eleventh Circuit sent the case back to Judge Atkins in 1994 for further findings of fact; in the interim between Judge Atkins’ order and the Eleventh Circuit’s consideration of the case, more shelter beds had been provided though the Miami-Dade Homeless Trust. After hearing further evidence Judge Atkins reaffirmed his earlier ruling, finding that while services had expanded there was still a large number of homeless people who had no place to go – and that the City was continuing to arrest them for harmless activity. Upon the City’s second appeal to the Eleventh Circuit, the Court ordered the parties to mediate in 1996. After 20 months of intensive negotiations, the plaintiffs and the City reached a settlement that left the Pottinger decision in place, but created a different remedy from what Judge Atkins had ordered. The settlement also provided for monetary compensation for those who had been wrongly arrested or had property destroyed before or during the litigation. The settlement was approved by Judge (now Chief Judge) Federico Moreno in 1998.

4. What does the Pottinger settlement provide?

The Pottinger settlement put in a place a protocol to prevent these violations from happening again.

Limitation on Arrests. It defines a limited set of misdemeanors, known as life-sustaining conduct misdemeanors, that are nearly impossible to avoid committing if you are homeless. These include such things as being in a park after hours, or sitting or sleeping on public sidewalks. The police can arrest a homeless person for these misdemeanors only after first warning the individual and offering available shelter. If there is no available shelter, then the individual truly has no place to go, and cannot be arrested for those misdemeanors. Nothing in Pottinger precludes an arrest for any felony or any misdemeanor that is not life-sustaining conduct, regardless of whether there is shelter.
Protection of Property. It establishes protections of homeless people’s property. If a homeless person is arrested, police must secure their property as they would anyone else’s. It also prohibits the kind of routine destruction of homeless people’s property that triggered the lawsuit.
Training. The settlement requires the City to implement training to ensure that police officers and other city officials who deal with homeless individuals are sensitive to the “unique struggle and circumstances of homeless persons,” and that homeless people’s legal rights are fully respected.
Monitoring. The Pottinger settlement requires police to keep records of their arrests of and interactions with homeless people, so that compliance can be monitored.
https://aclufl.org/resources/pottinger-agreement-faq/
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  #88  
Old Posted May 24, 2017, 5:38 PM
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Sheesh. Reading this thread makes most American cities sound like scenes of Fear The Walking Dead.
It can be like that.

I live about 2 blocks from San Francisco City Hall. At times I can be asked for "spare change" 4 times before I walk 1 block in any direction. But this is a minor annoyance compared to the people lying sprawled or erecting tents on the sidewalk nearly obstructing it, the people cconstantly hanging in or around fast food places (about half of them now have hired security guards--those that haven't are subject to constant theft: sit in such a place for an hour and you'll see someone come in, grab a bottled drink from a cooler and walk out without paying) harrassing or threatening paying customers, the people encountered stumbling half-clothed along many downtown sidewalks talking to themselves, the people relieving themselves (both kinds) in gutters or between parked cars in broad daylight on main streets . . . and so on.
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  #89  
Old Posted May 24, 2017, 5:41 PM
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how does "offensive littering" fit into this equation? that's really been the biggest fallout from the camping decision up here. enough so that eco minded, normal oregonians are starting to sharpen their pitchforks too. you know its bad when hippie moms start complaing about the street folks....people will start to camp, more will come, and eventually it turns into your crime ridden, squatter camp full or garbage and needles. those types of situations aren't healthy or sustainable for anyone involved. they are a health and safety hazard. and invariably in the summer, they always seem to catch on fire!!! the city allowed a sanctioned camp on some vacant land in north Portland last winter, and guess what, fire again. this time is also caught a neighbors house on fire. again, square one. well I guess well all have to agree to disagree. I think an aggressive approach at NOT providing a welcoming environment is needed. but this city is neither upholding already existing laws or providing solution. its a liberal ostrich with its head in the sand. so I lose the compassion contest I guess.
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  #90  
Old Posted May 24, 2017, 8:47 PM
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how does "offensive littering" fit into this equation? that's really been the biggest fallout from the camping decision up here. people will start to camp, more will come, and eventually it turns into your crime ridden, squatter camp full or garbage and needles. those types of situations aren't healthy or sustainable for anyone involved. they are a health and safety hazard. and invariably in the summer, they always seem to catch on fire!!! the city allowed a sanctioned camp on some vacant land in north Portland last winter, and guess what, fire again. this time is also caught a neighbors house on fire. again, square one. well I guess well all have to agree to disagree. I think an aggressive approach at NOT providing a welcoming environment is needed. but this city is neither upholding already existing laws or providing solution. its a liberal ostrich with its head in the sand. so I lose the compassion contest I guess.
The only answer is what Miami is trying to do. Forcefully remove if shelter beds are available and they refuse. Thats it.
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  #91  
Old Posted May 25, 2017, 2:05 AM
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I don't know if anyone has mentioned Austin yet, since I haven't gone through all the responses. But it's bad here. I tend to run out of patience when I see all the garbage piled up at intersections in my neighborhood and in the camps in wooded areas around the city. The problem gets little play in the media or from local leadership, maybe because we have so many other problems that Austinites see as higher priorities (e.g., literal traffic gridlock).
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  #92  
Old Posted May 25, 2017, 2:27 AM
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I don't know if anyone has mentioned Austin yet, since I haven't gone through all the responses. But it's bad here.
You should look down the road to San Antonio:

Quote:
San Antonio's homeless solution used as national model

Ryan Takeo, KING 4:06 PM. PDT October 12, 2016

SAN ANTONIO, Texas --

(San Antonio has created) a “one-stop shop” campus that’s dedicated to helping Bexar County’s homeless.

There are 30 agencies on its 22-acre campus. The services include housing, food, job training, child care and even kennels for pets, among other services. Mental health and addiction treatment is done across the street at the Restoration Center.

“All of the resources that a homeless person could need, if he or she is motivated, is centrally located right there,” said graduate Sam Lott, 52 . . . .

It cost $101 million to build . . . . 60 percent of that came from private donations . . . .

(Called Haven for Hope) it has had about 2,700 graduates move to permanent housing. About 4,600 others have moved into temporary housing, like in-housing treatment programs.

According to annual statistics, the number of the unsheltered homeless population has decreased about 15% since Haven started in 2010.

Keep in mind, the campus has not solved the city's homeless issue. The last homeless count shows about 2,800 people who are still unsheltered in the area.
http://www.king5.com/news/local/home...odel/197477103
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  #93  
Old Posted May 25, 2017, 2:29 AM
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The only answer is what Miami is trying to do. Forcefully remove if shelter beds are available and they refuse. Thats it.
What it? Site them for a misdemeanor? You think that's going to make them go away? Some might even look forward to a jail bed and 3 hot meals for a few days or weeks in bad weather. They won't be paying any fines.
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  #94  
Old Posted May 25, 2017, 6:50 PM
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One thing I'd like to add to the discussion is physical pain and the resulting addiction to opioids.

Anybody that's known someone who has experienced a traumatic injury knows that pain is an issue and the go to from professionals is to prescribe opioids to deal with the pain.

When the pain doesn't go away it is difficult to stop taking "pain killers". This is one reason why I supported legalization of marijuana products in CA. Those is pain would rather be painless no matter the outcome, ever if it leads to addiction. I haven't met one single human being that says they like to be in pain.
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  #95  
Old Posted May 25, 2017, 7:12 PM
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One thing I'd like to add to the discussion is physical pain and the resulting addiction to opioids.

Anybody that's known someone who has experienced a traumatic injury knows that pain is an issue and the go to from professionals is to prescribe opioids to deal with the pain.

When the pain doesn't go away it is difficult to stop taking "pain killers". This is one reason why I supported legalization of marijuana products in CA. Those is pain would rather be painless no matter the outcome, ever if it leads to addiction. I haven't met one single human being that says they like to be in pain.
Quote:
a compound that modulates the activity of the brain’s receptors for THC and endocannabinoids reduced chronic pain in mice. THC, or tetrahydrocannabinol, is the main psychoactive ingredient in marijuana; endocannabinoids are natural pain-relieving compounds released by the brain.

These modulating compounds, called positive allosteric modulators, or PAMs, work by binding to a recently discovered site on a cannabinoid receptor in the brain called CB1, which is different from the site that binds THC.
http://archive.news.indiana.edu/rele...in-study.shtml

Turns out, unsurprisingly, that, as with opiates, there are a number of cannabinoid receptors in mammalian bodies and some modulate pain without having any psychoative properties. In other words, of the many different cannabinoids found in natural marijuana and elsewhere, some are likely to be effective pain meds that don't get you high. Plenty of research is being done on this now, both by drug companes hoping to profit and by academic and governmental researchers.

As somebody who spent a decade working with opiate addicts, however, I'd like to say that essentially middle or working class folks who got addicted to prescription pain meds and never participated in the subculture of street drugs are usually pretty successful candidates for treatment including methadone maintenance. Methadone is a very effective pain medication like other opiates and is sometimes used as such by cancer doctors and others. If someone has intractible/incurable pain and has become opiate addicted, they can be maintained right now on oral methadone so as to prevent them from needing to buy street drugs and getting involved in that subculture and also preventing them from being tempted to inject impure street drugs which wreck your body. A tolerant/dependent person on maintenance doses or oral methadone can be a fully and normally functioning (working) member of society--certainly that problem alone shouldn't make them homeless.
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  #96  
Old Posted May 25, 2017, 8:22 PM
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does anyone have a good source of opiate deaths by year? id be curious to see the trend line. 50,000 a year sounds crazy though. that's like 5 times the gun murder rate. crazy.....
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  #97  
Old Posted May 26, 2017, 2:04 AM
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does anyone have a good source of opiate deaths by year? id be curious to see the trend line. 50,000 a year sounds crazy though. that's like 5 times the gun murder rate. crazy.....

I Heard the other day on NPR a story on opioid addiction and deaths that New Hampshire had 30/100,000 rate from opioid overdoses. The highest such rate in the US. This means everybody in that state knows someone or someone's kin that was affected by a death, much like high murder rate cities experience. It's weird how small, rural states like NH, VT and ME have a huge issue with this.

I've been thinking a lot about this problem for a while now. If you are pulled from a big car crash and end up in ICU drugged up by opioid instead of good old morphine, there is little to stop a doctor from ordering this type of medication. What if, as is the case with organ donation, a patient could sign off on this medication on their driver's license? I would rather avail myself of this than deal with the withdrawal syndrome or potential addiction.

Pedestrian's input on cannabis derived products is promising. Much more interesting than the actual crap with insanely priced antidotes.
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  #98  
Old Posted May 26, 2017, 3:52 PM
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does anyone have a good source of opiate deaths by year? id be curious to see the trend line. 50,000 a year sounds crazy though. that's like 5 times the gun murder rate. crazy.....
Philadelphia had more than 3x as many OD's as homicides and that's just the city.
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Old Posted May 26, 2017, 3:59 PM
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I Heard the other day on NPR a story on opioid addiction and deaths that New Hampshire had 30/100,000 rate from opioid overdoses. The highest such rate in the US. This means everybody in that state knows someone or someone's kin that was affected by a death, much like high murder rate cities experience. It's weird how small, rural states like NH, VT and ME have a huge issue with this.

I've been thinking a lot about this problem for a while now. If you are pulled from a big car crash and end up in ICU drugged up by opioid instead of good old morphine, there is little to stop a doctor from ordering this type of medication. What if, as is the case with organ donation, a patient could sign off on this medication on their driver's license? I would rather avail myself of this than deal with the withdrawal syndrome or potential addiction.

Pedestrian's input on cannabis derived products is promising. Much more interesting than the actual crap with insanely priced antidotes.
BC has a similar rate of ODs, so not just small rural states/provinces

Quote:
Today marks one year since British Columbia’s provincial health officer declared a public health emergency in the wake of an alarming increase in fatal opioid-related drug overdoses. Despite numerous preventative measures, however, new statistics reveal that overdose deaths are actually continuing to rise in the province.
“Tragically, in that 12-month period we have seen an additional 919 deaths,” B.C. provincial health officer Dr. Perry Kendall said in a written statement yesterday.
According to B.C.’s Coroners Service, there were a staggering 922 illicit drug overdose deaths in the province in 2016, up from 513 in 2015 and 366 in 2014. There were also a distressing 219 such overdose deaths in the first two months of 2017 -- a 65% increase from the same period last year. Males are disproportionately represented in these deaths, statistics reveal. The most at-risk age group are those 30 to 39.
219 deaths/2 months for a population of 4.6 is milllion equates to around 23 overdoses/100,000 ppl. amazing also, if you consider that the chinese population in BC likely has a zero/100,000 rate of opioid ODs.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/a-year-...sing-1.3369484
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Old Posted May 26, 2017, 5:33 PM
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BC has a similar rate of ODs, so not just small rural states/provinces



219 deaths/2 months for a population of 4.6 is milllion equates to around 23 overdoses/100,000 ppl. amazing also, if you consider that the chinese population in BC likely has a zero/100,000 rate of opioid ODs.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/a-year-...sing-1.3369484
Def. BC is way up there in the firmament of opioid od's and deaths. Montreal was spared from this in part because high quality heroin and coke are in plentiful supply according to crime journalists here. Labs have been found but the addiction from these drugs and crystal meth is very tame compared to points west. Montreal has always been a major port of entry for hard drugs from Asia and South America which explains the availability.
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