HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Atlantic Provinces


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #11841  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2017, 1:46 PM
MonctonRad's Avatar
MonctonRad MonctonRad is online now
Wildcats Rule!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Moncton NB
Posts: 34,451
Quote:
Originally Posted by mctnguy View Post
Annnnnd beating Halifax and St. John's NL (too)!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...ader-1.4209451
It just gets better and better.......
__________________
Go 'Cats Go
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11842  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2017, 2:16 PM
Monctoncore Monctoncore is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,117
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
It just gets better and better.......
Haha, let's not get to confident, we could hit a wall.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11843  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2017, 8:12 PM
Ifyoubuildit Ifyoubuildit is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctoncore View Post
Haha, let's not get to confident, we could hit a wall.
Are we counting a 100 mil rink in that figure almost completely covered by the tax payer? Which with amortized debt over the loan life time will cost the tax payers north of 200 mil? I think this CBC article should be viewed with some caution.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11844  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2017, 9:00 PM
riverviewer's Avatar
riverviewer riverviewer is offline
Random Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Siknikt
Posts: 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ifyoubuildit View Post
Are we counting a 100 mil rink in that figure almost completely covered by the tax payer? Which with amortized debt over the loan life time will cost the tax payers north of 200 mil? I think this CBC article should be viewed with some caution.
Moncton is being compared to two Provincial capitals that most certainly had government buildings included in their previous numbers.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11845  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 2:31 AM
Monctoncore Monctoncore is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ifyoubuildit View Post
Are we counting a 100 mil rink in that figure almost completely covered by the tax payer? Which with amortized debt over the loan life time will cost the tax payers north of 200 mil? I think this CBC article should be viewed with some caution.
There are a lot of things that cost the taxpayer, but at the end of the day we want sewers, we want roads, we want water, we want entertainment, we want street lights , hospitals, the list goes on, but we don't want to pay for any of it.

Every time a new house gets built in the north end, every new street etc., that adds to your taxes as well.. so yes your concern is valid but it will cost you less in taxes in your life to pay off the arena, than it will to pay off the ever expanding neighbourhoods.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11846  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 5:51 AM
Ifyoubuildit Ifyoubuildit is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctoncore View Post
There are a lot of things that cost the taxpayer, but at the end of the day we want sewers, we want roads, we want water, we want entertainment, we want street lights , hospitals, the list goes on, but we don't want to pay for any of it.

Every time a new house gets built in the north end, every new street etc., that adds to your taxes as well.. so yes your concern is valid but it will cost you less in taxes in your life to pay off the arena, than it will to pay off the ever expanding neighbourhoods.
Not following your logic. Doesn't the person who builds a new house pay taxes on said house? I am also pretty sure the city makes developers pay for most infra-structure. And the people building those homes have to have jobs to do so, and pay taxes on all goods and services they buy. Will the DTC pay commercial taxes annually? And where will the money come from for the DTC to pay its annual taxes? I am also unaware of any 100mil govt related projects in SJ or Fredericton in the last number of quarters, can you list any in this ballpark? I am also pretty sure people at the end of the day accept tax that goes to maintain our healthcare which is subpar at the best.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11847  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 12:39 PM
Monctoncore Monctoncore is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ifyoubuildit View Post
Not following your logic. Doesn't the person who builds a new house pay taxes on said house? I am also pretty sure the city makes developers pay for most infra-structure. And the people building those homes have to have jobs to do so, and pay taxes on all goods and services they buy. Will the DTC pay commercial taxes annually? And where will the money come from for the DTC to pay its annual taxes? I am also unaware of any 100mil govt related projects in SJ or Fredericton in the last number of quarters, can you list any in this ballpark? I am also pretty sure people at the end of the day accept tax that goes to maintain our healthcare which is subpar at the best.

For every new neighbourhood being built, that's more services the city has to offer, more sewers that have to be built, roads that have to be paved, bus services must travel farther, snowplows must work longer.. the list goes on. It's taxpayers money needed to to keep all that going, which actually ends up costing you more in the long run. Your taxes have the possibility of rising every time the city expands farther and farther out.

I am unaware of any at the moment either, nor did I mention other cities. This isn't SJ or Fredericton. Maybe they do and maybe they don't worry about taxes for healthcare. Yes tax payers are paying for this arena, but so will all the economic spinoffs and developments around the downtown core.

Everyone had the opportunity to come forward and speak out about this project, the majority spoke in polls etc., showing they approved of this project, if taxes were of concern, they should have been pushed before the building was halfway built.

My point is though that everything in that story on CBC counts, it doesn't matter if it's funded by the tax payers or not.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11848  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 12:42 PM
riverviewer's Avatar
riverviewer riverviewer is offline
Random Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Siknikt
Posts: 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ifyoubuildit View Post
I am also unaware of any 100mil govt related projects in SJ or Fredericton in the last number of quarters
The 100 million in Moncton is spread out over many years. So there isn't a 100 million quarter Gov't expense in Moncton in any quarter either.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11849  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 1:38 PM
David_99's Avatar
David_99 David_99 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ifyoubuildit View Post
Not following your logic. Doesn't the person who builds a new house pay taxes on said house? .... SJ ....
Speaking of Saint John, you should probably ask a resident how sprawl affects the city's services and tax base.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11850  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 1:39 PM
MonctonRad's Avatar
MonctonRad MonctonRad is online now
Wildcats Rule!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Moncton NB
Posts: 34,451
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverviewer View Post
The 100 million in Moncton is spread out over many years. So there isn't a 100 million quarter Gov't expense in Moncton in any quarter either.
Another point is that the city of Moncton committed to this project as a "loss leader" in order to stimulate more private development in the core. This seems to be working spectaculary well, with several major projects underway, announced or planned.

A city is defined by it's downtown. You have to have a downtown that people want to visit. The events centre provides Moncton with an additional downtown focus. As surrounding restaurants, pubs and hotels develop, this will become more evident. More downtown construction will mean a higher tax base, which in turn will pay off the debt created by building the events centre.

So far, I'd say that the plan is working.........
__________________
Go 'Cats Go
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11851  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 1:48 PM
MonctonRad's Avatar
MonctonRad MonctonRad is online now
Wildcats Rule!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Moncton NB
Posts: 34,451
Sad news in the T&T today.

Raven Spanier, probably the leading contemporary architect in Moncton, has died at the much-too-young age of 57 as a result of ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease).

Spanier was responsible for the design of Moncton City Hall, the ALC headquarters, the ambulatory care centre at the Moncton Hospital, Resurgo Place and the new downtown events centre.

He, more than anyone else, is responsible for the urban style associated with Moncton's recent growth and resurgence. He will be missed.

Perhaps there should be some commemoration to Mr. Spanier (as well as Ian Fowler, also gone too soon) in the plaza at the events centre.........
__________________
Go 'Cats Go

Last edited by MonctonRad; Jul 19, 2017 at 2:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11852  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 1:50 PM
Ammn_guy Ammn_guy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 192
The DT center spin off developments will generate more then a enough tax to pay for it over time. "the junction" alone which is pretty much being built because of the DT center will pay aprox 2-4 million a year in land tax alone.. not to mention the sales tax generated on sales.

To generate that same amount of tax in a residential area it would take blocks and blocks of houses. So whats cheaper to service... 100 acres of houses in royal oaks or 15 acres of high rises in the core. I bet you the tax bill is roughly the same, while the infrastructure costs are not. Density is cheaper Thats were the investments should be made.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11853  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 1:51 PM
Patapouf26 Patapouf26 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Moncton
Posts: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ifyoubuildit View Post
Not following your logic. Doesn't the person who builds a new house pay taxes on said house? I am also pretty sure the city makes developers pay for most infra-structure. And the people building those homes have to have jobs to do so, and pay taxes on all goods and services they buy. Will the DTC pay commercial taxes annually? And where will the money come from for the DTC to pay its annual taxes? I am also unaware of any 100mil govt related projects in SJ or Fredericton in the last number of quarters, can you list any in this ballpark? I am also pretty sure people at the end of the day accept tax that goes to maintain our healthcare which is subpar at the best.
Edit : I was late to the party. You guys all said it better than I could...

I believe Monctoncore is referring to the concept of urban sprawl versus urban densification (smart growth?). Look those up and you'll find tons of research showing that urban sprawl may not be healthy growth on many levels, one being an increase in infrastructure cost that does not create a good return on investment (what I mean is, the new tax base does not pay for the increase in infrastructure).

As for the Events Centre, one could argue that many of the projects that have started recently or are in the planning stages have been spurred by the construction of this centre (Urban Junction, 55 Queen, proposed Harper Building, Aquilini purchase of the Crowne Plaza block...). Also there's no tax levy for the centre but the new developments will certainly pay their annual taxes and help revitalize our urban core. Like your nametag says, If you build it they will come.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11854  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 1:58 PM
Ammn_guy Ammn_guy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_99 View Post
Speaking of Saint John, you should probably ask a resident how sprawl affects the city's services and tax base.
Exactly st john has a real issue.. they cannot pay to maintain their infrastructure so the city is falling apart.. and people are moving out of the city because of it.. Their desperate grasps to amalgamate the valley into the city to try and fund their deficit will never succeed.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11855  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 10:34 PM
Ifyoubuildit Ifyoubuildit is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patapouf26 View Post
Edit : I was late to the party. You guys all said it better than I could...

I believe Monctoncore is referring to the concept of urban sprawl versus urban densification (smart growth?). Look those up and you'll find tons of research showing that urban sprawl may not be healthy growth on many levels, one being an increase in infrastructure cost that does not create a good return on investment (what I mean is, the new tax base does not pay for the increase in infrastructure).

As for the Events Centre, one could argue that many of the projects that have started recently or are in the planning stages have been spurred by the construction of this centre (Urban Junction, 55 Queen, proposed Harper Building, Aquilini purchase of the Crowne Plaza block...). Also there's no tax levy for the centre but the new developments will certainly pay their annual taxes and help revitalize our urban core. Like your nametag says, If you build it they will come.
For the record, I am always in support of growth and think the DTC will eventually have a net positive impact on the city. I think it should have had 20-30,000 seats so it could have attracted many more larger acts and events, and thus really create DT foot traffic but that is a different subject. What I don't like is people do not use math to check if what is being said or promoted in the media is truly reflective of the situation. Since Urban Junction was mentioned, we are a far cry from a new addition of 2mil in taxes from a debelopment that currently has a Goodlife, which I assume will result in closure of both the GL in the Sobeys complex and possibly the one DT, so in actual fact the Junction is likely generating net $0 in tax thus far. Yes, a hotel is coming and I am guessing that may get the Junction to a positive tax contribution to the city of about 250k, a far cry from 2mil. Yes, maybe it will eventually generate 1mil+ in tax but that will likely take a decade or more. I recently sold a home in a popular URBAN area of moncton for the same price I paid in 2003 after being on the market for an entire year which was 15% under the appraised tax value. And I understand all our taxes will eventually increase to cover the DTC. Are families going to move to Moncton if they are upside down on house tax and value? We have to make sure our decisions make fiscal sense and it should be VIP for the tax payers to request an independent feasibility study other than those with a vested interest. Namely, a third party financial study, other than consultants chosen by the city. So yes, I am 100% about density, architectural design, and community. I have one prediction and then I will leave this topic alone, so I understand the city is trying to fundraise for the small public plaza attached to the DTC. Having some fundraising experience myself, I believe the individuals or companies that have any charitable dollars to spend give to the Hospitals, Crossroads, Boys and Girls, etc and will most likely not donate to this community plaza. So I predict Irving will come in as the white night and council will in turn give them naming rights for the entire DTC....I apologize in advance for this speculation.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11856  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 2:24 AM
saintjohnirish☘ saintjohnirish☘ is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: North End, Saint John NB
Posts: 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammn_guy View Post
Exactly st john has a real issue.. they cannot pay to maintain their infrastructure so the city is falling apart.. and people are moving out of the city because of it.. Their desperate grasps to amalgamate the valley into the city to try and fund their deficit will never succeed.
Maybe you're right, maybe you're not. But what needs to be realized is the provincial government has to own up to part of the responsibility with SJ's situation. SJ doesn't have the capacity to change it. When a city is declining for decades or more, you'd think the province would step in instead of taking gov jobs out of the city. And let's speak historically. SJ has been the metropolitan centre of NB for centuries. Throughout any of our lifetimes we have only known SJ to be shrinking. What a appalling notch against NB for it to allow the circumstances in SJ to come to what they are today. As well as other communities-- Fton and Mton (and SJ's affluent suburbs) are the only place in the province doing well. You can't blame SJ for how bad things are or fault the city for trying any method to solve the issues. We need the provincial government to make SJ a priority— it is largely a very vulnerable and marginalized community. Sorry to rain on this booster Mton parade, but you don't leave a brother down.

Last edited by saintjohnirish☘; Jul 20, 2017 at 2:57 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11857  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 3:07 AM
Monctoncore Monctoncore is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,117
Quote:
Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘ View Post
Maybe you're right, maybe you're not. But what needs to be realized is the provincial government has to own up to part of the responsibility with SJ's situation. SJ doesn't have the capacity to change it. When a city is declining for decades or more, you'd think the province would step in instead of taking gov jobs out of the city. And let's speak historically. SJ has been the metropolitan centre of NB for centuries. Throughout any of our lifetimes we have only known SJ to be shrinking. What a appalling notch against NB for it to allow the circumstances in SJ to come to what they are today. As well as other communities-- Fton and Mton (and SJ's affluent suburbs) are the only place in the province doing well. You can't blame SJ for how bad things are or fault the city for trying any method to solve the issues. We need the provincial government to make SJ a priority— it is largely a very vulnerable and marginalized community. Sorry to rain on this booster Mton parade, but you don't leave a brother down.

I completely agree with you, more has to be done, Saint John is an amazing city, with so much history, being canadas first incorporated city etc. The province does need to step in and help. Now if anyone made it seem like they were dumping on SJ, I don't think that was their intention, but more so just mentioning how the sprawl has caused a lot of issues. I believe NB can thrive with three cities and the government of NB and Canada needs to wake up and help SJ out.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11858  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 5:50 PM
Patapouf26 Patapouf26 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Moncton
Posts: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘ View Post
Sorry to rain on this booster Mton parade, but you don't leave a brother down.
You mentioned this earlier in your post, but SJ is certainly not the only "brother down" is this province. The whole province, outside of Moncton, Freddy and a few other spots is on a down... As a province, what are we to do? I find it is embarassing to be in such a tough spot economically, compared to much of the country. But to keep things in perspective, we're doing quite well compared to most of the planet...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11859  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2017, 4:19 AM
saintjohnirish☘ saintjohnirish☘ is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: North End, Saint John NB
Posts: 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patapouf26 View Post
You mentioned this earlier in your post, but SJ is certainly not the only "brother down" is this province. The whole province, outside of Moncton, Freddy and a few other spots is on a down... As a province, what are we to do? I find it is embarassing to be in such a tough spot economically, compared to much of the country. But to keep things in perspective, we're doing quite well compared to most of the planet...
For sure, that's why I mentioned the small communties are in a rough spot. But SJ isn't Dalhousie. Most small towns across the country aren't doing well. But cities are— virtually every CMA in Canada posted growth (a couple posted 0 growth) in the census except ol Saint John. We are the only shrinking CMA in Canada. We can do better eh! Anyways didn't mean to cut yas off, cheers

Last edited by saintjohnirish☘; Jul 21, 2017 at 6:50 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11860  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2017, 11:28 AM
FarmerTom FarmerTom is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 191
The woman's goodlife beside sobeys is staying put. The small one in the Old Doolies is closing. The new one is it's replacement and extremely larger.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Atlantic Provinces
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:36 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.