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  #21  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 5:29 AM
TarHeelJ TarHeelJ is offline
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Originally Posted by osmo View Post
Africa is big place. Maybe educate yourself more in the continent you seem to know nothing about. High end Victoria Island Lagos rivals many of the nicest parts of the globe, Angola has been or performing the American economy for 7 years now, Africa is by far the largest land mass with the most diverse sub-set of ethnicities present. You wouldn't be ignorant to call each European the same simply because they are white, so don't all Africans together with one broad brush. China is doing what the West didn't do in activity trading technology and development for hard goods. Africa is now getting the infrastructure it needs badly an the technology to make more efficient economies that can grown with better ease.

Africa is the future. Smart European kids from Portugal and Spain whom see zero prospects at home are funneling into Africa in search of opportunities. It's the we west over there with man riches to be made. Keeps staying ignorant as it keeps on progressing forward. There is way more room for growth over there hen what is present in the west.
I'm pretty Africa is not the world's largest landmass. Africa may be getting the infrastructure it needs due to massive international funding, but it will be a LONG time before most of these urban areas become efficient and independent economies. Of course you can look on the bright side - the only way is up - so obviously there is gigantic room for growth.

Where are these smart kids "funneling" into? I'm very curious about this statement.
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  #22  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 5:30 AM
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In response to Osmo, there's a thread over at the skybar that compares landmasses.

Asia > America (North and South) > Africa in terms of landmass.

Here is the link, fascinating work by ShiRo : http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=206663

Last edited by chris08876; Mar 29, 2014 at 6:30 AM.
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  #23  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 6:23 AM
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More like crashing into oblivion. Lets face facts, Sub-Saharan African societies never got much past hunting and gathering. I don't see a bright future for Sub-Sarahan Africa anywhere into the foreseeable future. I can't say too much on this ultra PC forum so I'll just leave it at that.
I agree, though one exception to this would be South Africa and maybe neighbouring Bostwana and Namibia. But, these areas are not expecting the surge in population that Nigeria and Tanzania are.
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  #24  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 6:23 AM
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Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
In response to Osmo, there's a thread over at the skybar that compares landmasses.

Asia > North America > Africa in terms of landmass.

Here is the link, fascinating work by ShiRo : http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=206663
Quick correction: Africa is larger than North America. It is the combined Americas that are larger than Africa.
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  #25  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 6:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxRox View Post
Quick correction: Africa is larger than North America. It is the combined Americas that are larger than Africa.
O I see. My bad, I'm use to thinking people refer to America as N.America. Makes sense now that I think about it. Western Africa is huge compared to the mainland U.S.. Appreciate the correction, always good to update ones knowledge.

Edited original post to not confuse others.
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  #26  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 11:29 AM
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Africa has been scaled poorly on every western map for as long as I can remember. It's true size is understated, people forget how large it actually is. People also like to lump it all together and then forget how many DIFFERENT ethnic groups reside on that landmass.

I am posting from my phone so pardon how these links may appear without code. I will edit when I get near a laptop later on.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/daily...11/cartography

People forget that aside from the high population skews that African cities give the continent is largely still empty. 800 million people hardly fill up half of the land mass and when you start talking infrastructure and connectivity the realities do coast quickly start to dominate. Africa is nearly double the size of Russia, nearly three times the size of Canada, yet nobody faults Canada for being balkish on infrastructure construction over it's vast land. We only recently developed a national twin lanes highway and to my knowledge is still might not be complete from coast to coast as of yet. Canada's rail lines have grown inferior and it's expensive to fly across Canada for many reasons aside from simply distance. All these issues we face here African nations face also as they are increasingly more large then they need to be realistically. The costs of re-forming already laid infrastructure which connected artificial trade and commercial points that were of efficiency to colonialism and not to actually classic and historical trade patterns of the continent have staggering costs to take on. One country may have the means, but next door the other country might have other issues more urgent then seeking to re-align a rail road or super-highway. Again, look at Canada which took nearly 60 years to have a twin-lanend national highway, when America built theres in 10 years. Canada still has no coast to coast energy pipe-line either, most of the hurdles to those projects has been politics and costs.

That leads to my next point is the bogus and non-functional political boundaries present in Africa. The 54 nations that make up Africa have very little actual merit. The land mass is a complex grouping of hundreds of different ethnic groups. The small sizes of nations such Rwanda mirror the real size of African-first-nations in respect to their natural and historical homelands. We don't fault Europe for drawing blood for 300 years to establish these borders, so why the ignorance towards Africa when it has attempted to do the same post colonialism? For my homeland of Nigeria for exams you have a fractured nation of Christians and Muslims that should at the very least be two nations. But even from that even smaller nations exist either that "simple" two way part.

If you were to have a real "nation" map based in the different ethnicities present in Africa it would look something like this:



This would alone already balloon and likely double If not triple the 143 countries we have present in the globe today. Also, if you think off the ramifications of what this would have in global institutions such as the United Nations, among others it becomes staggering.

It's hard to run a model of governance with this type of set up unless you are set up in a staunch Stateist model in India, or are slightly or heavily totalitarian as we see with China. People
Can marvel at India but it's model has kept it back 50 years from where it should be as the rigid state model within the framework of democracy has slowed everything down in that country to molasses. So saying Africa just needs "democracy and less corruption" is true but a small and nieve fix. It would just be India but with more chaos, which is really what it is today for the most part (India is still rampant with corruption). The Chinese model would no work on the scale and scope of the land mass either. The best system that would work for complex Africa would be a frame work of autonomous ethnic nations either the larger framework of a institutional and economic bloc; I.e the EU model. Where infrastructure and development can be centrally funded while still having nation states take on local challenges. This was the course of action present in Africa when the African Union was taking serious steps towards providing fiscal weight to the union with a currency and development fund.

If this ever sees the day of light then overnight you shift the most powerful bloc of countries to the West, to Africa, almost overnight. It's all competition here and for the West that has little prospects of resources, declining birth rates, energy source issues, environmental issues, etc it would not even be close to the upward potential Africa sits on with tens of trillions in resources and wealth beneath their feet. For Europe their greatest fear is that Africa rises up and takes things personal to take revenge on a hundred plus years of torment by shafting them economically just as they did to Africa. Shafting them back for doing such things as overcharging obscene amounts for Africa to use EuroSat satellite wave bands until Africa developed it's own.

More on this, as EuroSat was a hustle mainly ran by France that charged African nations XX% up-charges of usage fees to maintain Africans vast mobile/cellular networks. It was $500 million a year being dumped into Europe for this until the African Development Bank teamed up with prominent African leadership and help spearhead RASCOM which implemented it's own satellite program to by-pass the hustle that Europe was imposing on them. RASCOM cost the African continent a one time payment of $400 million and as a result has stabilized the growth of the largest cellular network on the globe. China as Russia now have open hands in sharing technology with Africa and this is the turning point where the stars will slowly start to align.

To isolate Europe has been European greatest fear and they have done all they can to hope that Africa remains the chaos that it currently sits in.

Lastly, to the European kids in Africa. Yes. You see countries like Angola with its Portuguese language base and 7-10%+ in GDP growth per year as very lucrative. Many Portuguese youth are fleeing the depressed homeland to go chase economic opportunities in Angola and Brazil. Many Germans youth can be found in Nigeria working for engineering firms doing projects there.

This is your "third world" Africa:



Luanda, Angola is one the fast developing cities as one of the most priciest cities on the globe. Africa is more then squalor and chaos. It has a lot away to go but it is simply ignorance that exists in the West on many topics related to the continent.

Last edited by osmo; Mar 30, 2014 at 11:27 AM.
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  #27  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 11:57 AM
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Osmo you tell me about Victoria Island where yes it might be nice for the tiny minority of rich who live in Lagos, but a vast majority of the city lives in disgusting impoverished slums. And Angola has a huge economy only because of its rich amount of resources, the countries people are not prospering even though it has a large GDP. China has come in and swooped away most of the countries natural resources for itself. Africa is a rich continent when it comes to minerals and oil. Most countries in sub Saharan Africa are in constant flux due to overpopulation, disease, famine, extreme poverty, etc. There comes a time when people have to stop blaming the west for the problems in Africa. All of the countries have become independent nations starting at the end of WW2. There isn't hardly a single nation that doesn't have extreme poverty and a gigantic gap between the rich and everyone else. Even Cape Town, Africa's crown jewel has extreme income inequality and an incredibly high rate of HIV. I wish Africa could get it together as I don't want to see fellow human beings suffering but one has to question why can't Afrcia ever seem to get it together and it probably never will.
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  #28  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 12:00 PM
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these statistics do not, in and of themselves, imply anything close to "the rise of africa." rather, they are a worrying glimpse into a future of unrewarded rural-to-urban migration, endless slums, overburdened infrastructure, and the sort of unregulated human crush in which criminality, violence and disease are ever-present.

sub-saharan africa needs copenhagens, not shanghais.
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  #29  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 2:59 PM
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Originally Posted by osmo View Post
Africa is big place. High end Victoria Island Lagos rivals many of the nicest parts of the globe
One of my best friends spent most of his childhood on Victoria Island, and as he describes it, it's like a prison colony for expats.

Basically all the rich expats who have to be in Lagos for the energy industry live on Victoria Island, and you're basically trapped there (or at least, the residents feel as if they're trapped). It's especially hard on the spouses (almost always wives) who are used to New York and London and Hong Kong and are feel imprisoned behind compound walls.

Yeah, it's kind of frivolous laments from the rich, but I think it speaks to general class situation over there.
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  #30  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 4:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
One of my best friends spent most of his childhood on Victoria Island, and as he describes it, it's like a prison colony for expats.

Basically all the rich expats who have to be in Lagos for the energy industry live on Victoria Island, and you're basically trapped there (or at least, the residents feel as if they're trapped). It's especially hard on the spouses (almost always wives) who are used to New York and London and Hong Kong and are feel imprisoned behind compound walls.

Yeah, it's kind of frivolous laments from the rich, but I think it speaks to general class situation over there.
I've heard similar things but to be frank many expats don't choose to be more open into navigating the city. The city has its risks, but they forget the rich Nigerians whom also live on Victoria go to and from easily. Its all a mind set. Many expats close themselves off and create the prison complex themselves.

You really can't claim any difference between any of the developing world mega cities. Lagos is to big for its own good, but so is Manila, Mumbai, and a host of others that share the similar issues of poor infrastructure, slums, crime, etc.

This isn't a unique problem to Africa. Its a problem to all cities that grow faster then their capacity allows them to.

Things such as the construction of hard infrastructure will be seeing increases as the African Development Bank increases its funding scope over the corrupt World Bank which currently has had a monopoly on funding for the past 20 years.
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  #31  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 4:52 PM
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Like a tropical version of Dickensian London without the nice architecture.
Also scorching hot and full of mosquitos that carry malaria. I'll pass.
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  #32  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 5:57 PM
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Lagos and Kinshasha with more than 30 million inhabitants !!!
I hope they will start big infrastructure works and the sooner will be the better otherwise it will be hell.
Those forecasts are total crap. I mean Ouagadougou with more inhabitants than Abidjan, seriously!

The growth potential of Luanda is also completely overestimated. On the other hand, they seem to have forgotten Douala and Yaoundé. Some regional metropolises of the DRC, like Lubumbashi, should also be in the top 10, but they are forgotten here.

This is a map that I posted in another thread. The DRC projected on a map of Europe, with its main cities and their population as of 2010. The regional cities of the DRC have a lot of growth potential (whereas Kinshasa is already so big that it's unlikely it will grow as much as the other DRC cities in the future).

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  #33  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 6:23 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Basically all the rich expats who have to be in Lagos for the energy industry live on Victoria Island, and you're basically trapped there (or at least, the residents feel as if they're trapped). It's especially hard on the spouses (almost always wives) who are used to New York and London and Hong Kong and are feel imprisoned behind compound walls.
The experience in Abdijan (which like Lagos is built around a coastal lagoon) is, or rather was, quite different for the Western expats. Life in Abidjan was very nice, lots of fun, you could go water-skiing on the lagoon after work, lots of clubs and street-side restaurants (maquis). All the French expats who lived in Abidjan until the start of the civil war in 2002 remember it fondly (the best years were the 1980s apparently, when the city was almost at Western levels in terms of quality of life).

Things have changed a lot in the past 10 years though. The economy was in shamble until the end of the civil war in 2012, now it's getting better. Overpopulation and pollution have appeared (Ivorians from the provinces flocked to Abidjan during the civil war, swelling its population). Infrastructures used to be top-notch (the best urban freeways in Africa for instance), but they are now decrepit. The lagoon has become polluted and it's impossible to swim in it anymore. Crime is as high as in Lagos now.

Yaoundé is also another city which has gone from being a pleasant place to live to being more and more a run-down place. Same for Tananarive. Dakar seems to still maintain its quality of life (best climate, least crowdedness and lowest crime rate in West Africa). Libreville, Port-Gentil, and Pointe-Noire also seem to have maintained their relatively high quality of life. And Brazzaville has actually improved compared to the civil war in the 1990s.

So the situations are contrasted.

This is Abdijan and its lagoon:





And the beaches on the Atlantic coastline, in the southern districts of Abidjan:


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  #34  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 6:55 PM
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I like the optimism, but African culture is drastically different than Chinese.
Could you explain the differences for the less educated?
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  #35  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 6:57 PM
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More like crashing into oblivion. Lets face facts, Sub-Saharan African societies never got much past hunting and gathering. I don't see a bright future for Sub-Sarahan Africa anywhere into the foreseeable future. I can't say too much on this ultra PC forum so I'll just leave it at that.
Interesting considering the richest man to ever live was from West Africa.

Also, explain this term "Sub-Saharan Africa". What makes Sub Saharan Africans different from other Africans or the rest of humanity for that matter?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_1973840.html
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  #36  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 8:06 PM
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I don't want to say anything because I dont want to be banned and there are many many incredibly sensitive and uber PC people on this board so yeah.
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  #37  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 9:22 PM
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Originally Posted by goat314 View Post
Interesting considering the richest man to ever live was from West Africa.

Also, explain this term "Sub-Saharan Africa". What makes Sub Saharan Africans different from other Africans or the rest of humanity for that matter?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_1973840.html


Because if one is talking about culture, then "Africa" is south of the Sahara. North of the Sahara is a different civilization entirely.
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  #38  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 9:35 PM
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Because if one is talking about culture, then "Africa" is south of the Sahara. North of the Sahara is a different civilization entirely.
How so? Please explain further.
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  #39  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 9:37 PM
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I don't want to say anything because I dont want to be banned and there are many many incredibly sensitive and uber PC people on this board so yeah.
So, If somebody disagrees with you they are PC?
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  #40  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 9:45 PM
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I for one think Africa has a bright future if it can get over its post colonial malaise. Historically, Africa was home to many stable, cultured, and socially sophisticated civilizations before Western colonization. I'm pretty sure a lot of that culture is still in tact and it would be great to see what a modern African society left to its own devices may evolve into. I actually think Gaddafi's plan for an African Union, similar to the EU, could have been positive for the continents future stability. As long as there are too many foreign interests in African affairs the continent will never be able to hash out its problems and find solutions.
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