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  #221  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2014, 3:34 AM
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Oh yeah, and I just wanted to mention I don't know why we are talking about Quebec in this context, given that Québécois culture is not an immigrant culture.
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  #222  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2014, 3:39 AM
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Not at all. I am not talking about (perceived) quality of speech. I am talking about shoring up the sheer number of speakers - period.

And as I said, there is basically zero assimilation of French Canadians in Quebec. 100% of them speak French.

Probably about 90% of Ukrainian-Canadians don't speak any Ukrainian. Beyond basic words like yes, no, please and thank you.
That for sure isn’t true, which makes me question some your other numbers on this issue as well. I would say that most of them speak it, but perhaps not fluently.
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  #223  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2014, 3:45 AM
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That for sure isn’t true, which makes me question some your other numbers on this issue as well. I would say that most of them speak it, but perhaps not fluently.
My numbers are not that far off

http://journals.uvic.ca/index.php/WP...File/5817/2681

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.c...ian-canadians/
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  #224  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2014, 3:47 AM
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Oh yeah, and I just wanted to mention I don't know why we are talking about Quebec in this context, given that Québécois culture is not an immigrant culture.
What we’re looking at here is groups of people from a certain linguistic and cultural groups that moved to another region far away and started evolving culturally and linguistically their own, thus becoming identifiably different from the parent culture. Whether or not the group is technically an immigrant group I don’t think matters.
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  #225  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2014, 3:49 AM
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What we’re looking at here is groups of people from a certain linguistic and cultural groups that moved to another region far away and started evolving culturally and linguistically their own, thus becoming identifiably different from the parent culture. Whether or not the group is technically an immigrant group I don’t think matters.
So in that sense it would also apply to white Americans, for example?
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  #226  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2014, 4:13 AM
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That looks like a fascinating paper. I’ve only read a few pages of it so far - have to run now - but there are a number of things there that I think may be misinterpretations, i.e. “Ukrainians born in Canada are, slowly and surely, coming to think and feel like Canadians (Sekirin, 1994).” Note the 1994 date, and that conclusion seems perfectly logical to me, give the history I discussed above, and it doesn’t suggest at all that they feel less Ukrainian. Anyway, I’m out for the night. If you’re curious about the old Ukrainian stereotypes and jokes this Metro song covers a lot of them, all in a Christmas song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QviiQ...tu.be&t=12m35s
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  #227  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2014, 4:14 AM
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So in that sense it would also apply to white Americans, for example?
I wouldn't call "white" a linguistic and cultural group, but it would apply to Americans of British descent, for example, and the way their culture has gone it's own route.
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  #228  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2014, 1:15 PM
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I wouldn't call "white" a linguistic and cultural group, but it would apply to Americans of British descent, for example, and the way their culture has gone it's own route.
They are all interesting to look at but "charter groups" like WASP Americans generally get a far greater influx of people of other origins grafted onto them than immigrant groups.

While they sometimes do get exogenous add-ons, very often it is more that established immigrant groups provide interesting snapshots of how the old country was when their ancestors left it. With of course evolution and adaptation to the new country as well - and a good measure of acculturation and assimilation thrown in. But often certain old ways that have long disappeared in the country of origin have been retained.
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  #229  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2014, 3:39 PM
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That’s like telling the Quebecois that they need some more immigrants from France to help them clean up their language.
Not at all. The HUGE difference is that many immigrants to Quebec end up learning French. Do Colombian, Chinese, Philipino, etc. immigrants really learn Ukrainian and become fluent in it after they've permanently settled in Saskatchewan nowadays? Really? I have a hard time believing it.

Quebec doesn't "need" an influx of French (or Belgian, Swiss, etc.) immigrants for the survival of its language, unlike the Ukrainian language which does need an influx of Ukrainians if it wants to survive long term on the Prairies.


Edit: the comparison, and differences, between the two situations is actually a good example of the "free language market" Anglo America swallowing the Ukrainians over a few generations and leaving only traces of them in the end (like the French heritage bits of modern Louisiana).
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  #230  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2014, 7:11 PM
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Not at all. The HUGE difference is that many immigrants to Quebec end up learning French. Do Colombian, Chinese, Philipino, etc. immigrants really learn Ukrainian and become fluent in it after they've permanently settled in Saskatchewan nowadays? Really? I have a hard time believing it.

.
Exactly what I mean by a "charter" group.
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