Possible Idea for Congestion Pricing (NYC): Is it going to far?

[chris08876]

NYC is going to revisit congestion pricing. Here are some of the possible ideas/proposals that may come of such a plan. Quite frankly, I am not a fan of it because some of the bridges that are free, would see rises of $10 or more. These bridges are the Ed Koch Queensboro, Williamsburg, Brooklyn, and Manhattan Bridges which I feel would affect the citizens of the city in the outer borough negatively.
------------------------------------------------------------


Notes:

1) A group called Move New York unveiled a revised version of the plan at Baruch College on friday.

2) Tolls would be reduced on the Henry Hudson, Throgs Neck, Whitestone, and RFK Bridges.

3) They would also be lowered on the Cross Bay, Gil Hodges, and Verrazano Bridges, and the Hugh Carey Tunnel.

4) Like the Bloomberg plan, tolls would be added to the Ed Koch Queensboro, Williamsburg, Brooklyn, and Manhattan Bridges.

5) Drivers would also pay a toll to go south of 60th Street in Manhattan.

6) In addition to adding tolls to the East River bridges, it would lower them on other crossings.

7) A taxi surcharge for trips below 96th Street.

8) Plan Would Add $15 Tolls To four East River Bridges, Which Are All Currently Free
----------------------------------------------------

MAP:

Here is a map of the proposed changes in prices

--------------------> http://cdn.theatlanticcities.com/img...mapUpdate_.jpg

As you can see in the map, the proposed changes both when it comes to price reduction, and price increase.

-------------------------------------------------------------

The mission statement for the movement is:

Virtually everywhere in our region, you pay a toll to drive over a major bridge or through a tunnel.

That’s okay, and to be expected: the bridges and tunnels have to be maintained, and the transit system, which is the lifeblood of the region, relies on the surplus revenues – which not only helps transit users get around, but helps keep them off the roads.

The problem is that some drivers get to pay nothing. Nearly three-quarters of trips into the Manhattan Central Business District (CBD) (~420,000 vehicles each day) don’t pay a toll. Their free ride burdens everyone else.

Whether they’re coming across an East River bridge from the east or crossing 60th Street from the north, those free trips add to congestion that slows down pedestrians, delivery vehicles, and other drivers. And those free trips are possible only because thousands of other drivers outside Manhattan, who tend to have fewer transit alternatives and lower average incomes, are paying high tolls, thus carrying the water for the ‘free riders.’

Based on established trends, tolls on the major MTA crossings will hit $20-$25 by 2020 and $40-$50 by 2030. This trend is unfair and unsustainable. And despite these excessive tolls, we're still suffering from a struggling system.

====================================
http://www.move-ny.org/pages/a-raw-deal

[10023]

If you live in Queens or Brooklyn, why are you driving into Manhattan?

Congestion pricing has worked in London. The traffic isn't even that bad in the center of town here (it's worse on some of the flyovers to the west at rush hour), despite mostly narrow roads.

Looking at this map though... why should it be cheaper to cross the Verrazano or the various crossings into NJ than to get from Brooklyn to Manhattan? Make those $10 round trip and it would be more like it (leave the Midtown tunnel at $15 because that's all the suburbanites that come in on the LIE anyway).

[10023]

Also, I don't think 60th Street is a good place to start the congestion zone. You need to provide drivers with an egress if they don't want to pay the toll, and a way to drive around the congestion zone without going through it. That's why in London, the "border roads" are all big zones like Park Lane and Marylebone Road. You would have people driving south to 60th, seeing that they're about to enter the congestion zone, and trying to turn east or west to turn around. It would be a traffic nightmare.

59th Street might be slightly better, as it at least goes across the park and is two ways, but it's already busy. Maybe 72nd would be better, or just include the entire UWS/UES in the zone (up to 110th).

Also, in order to allow people to drive around the congestion zone, the FDR should be toll-free at least as far as the Midtown tunnel (with some sort of toll-free route signposted that allows people to exit and get to the entrance of the tunnel). You've gotta be able to get from the UES to the LIE without going into the congestion zone.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by 10023

If you live in Queens or Brooklyn, why are you driving into Manhattan?

^ To get to New Jersey?

I think this kind of screws over the people in the boroughs or Long Island who are essentially forced to go through Manhattan to enter the mainland US. Every single route to the mainland will now cost money.

[chris08876]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ To get to New Jersey?

I think this kind of screws over the people in the boroughs or Long Island who are essentially forced to go through Manhattan to enter the mainland US. Every single route to the mainland will now cost money.

Exactly. I mean I could see the idea essentially is to encourage more mass transit by means of buses or subway use, but now its expensive to go to the mainland. For some, that extra $10-15 can go a long way. Even commuting to work if your use to driving to Manhattan from within the city itself. I don't think the congestion is that bad to warrant such changes.

[10023]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ To get to New Jersey?

I think this kind of screws over the people in the boroughs or Long Island who are essentially forced to go through Manhattan to enter the mainland US. Every single route to the mainland will now cost money.

The idea that anyone "has to" go through the most congested business district in the US to get to the other side is ridiculous. They can take the Triborough, Throg's Neck or Verrazano and bypass Manhattan. Unless you're actually going to Hoboken or Jersey City, it's faster to go around anyway. And for people who work in one of those places, there is public transit.

Longer term, they should also build a road tunnel that connects the Midtown tunnel with the Lincoln tunnel under Manhattan.

[uaarkson]

This would be really rough on the construction industry, especially smaller trades for things like tenant fitout. I think a smaller toll like $2.50 coming in would be more reasonable.

Also, traffic in Manhattan already works about as well as it can. The grid is the backbone, and a congestion zone would just congest the hell out of everything around it.

I could give a flying fuck about anyone who chooses to drive into Manhattan every day for work, but commercial vehicle traffic is still an important lifeline that has been pretty smothered over the past decade.

[mhays]

Not really. The playing field would be level. Every firm would face the same issue, and every firm would build it into their bids. Also, if traffic dropped, maybe there'd be more schedule certainty, which might translate to lower bids overall.

[10023]

Originally Posted by mhays

Not really. The playing field would be level. Every firm would face the same issue, and every firm would build it into their bids. Also, if traffic dropped, maybe there'd be more schedule certainty, which might translate to lower bids overall.

This (although I have no idea about the latter part). And maybe some of the smaller trades would also move into the congestion zone (in and around Chinatown, etc) to avoid paying the toll.

Traffic in Manhattan doesn't "work about as well as it can"... it sucks and it's much worse than it needs to be. For all the complaints, congestion pricing in London has worked... it's a relatively easy city to drive around by comparison (if you can figure out where you're going).

[M II A II R II K]

As a reminder, those that would cry war on cars and also at the same time champion the free market... If the supply of roads is low, then the poorest should be priced out of the roads, and as they get more congested, continue to increase the price.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by 10023

Looking at this map though... why should it be cheaper to cross the Verrazano or the various crossings into NJ than to get from Brooklyn to Manhattan? Make those $10 round trip and it would be more like it (leave the Midtown tunnel at $15 because that's all the suburbanites that come in on the LIE anyway).

Because people going from Long Island to the mainland should not be going through Manhattan, which simply doesn't have the road space. This is doubly true for semi trucks, which routinely show up on Canal to take advantage of the free toll on the Manhattan/Williamsburg bridges. Many of the highways around NY are also parkways, which forbid trucks... further restricting the choices.

Driving from Brooklyn into Manhattan should be expensive... there are so many other options than driving. I'd be in favor of exempting taxis, gypsy cabs, and dollar vans from the tolls, though... there are still plenty of places in the outer boroughs that don't have great access to the subway or the LIRR right now, and transit won't be extended out there for decades.

[Perklol]

Yes all bridges and tunnels to Manhattan Island should have tolls. It can be used on mass transit or to fix roads.

[10023]

ardecila... my suggestion would be a more expensive toll for the tunnel (used by traffic coming in on the LIE) and cheaper tolls on the Brooklyn, Manhattan and Queensboro bridges (used more often by NYC residents).

Better yet, if it can be enforced - have different pricing via EZ Pass for cars registered in the five boroughs vs. outside of them. Though you would have to control the black market somehow.

[chris08876]

Originally Posted by 10023

ardecila... my suggestion would be a more expensive toll for the tunnel (used by traffic coming in on the LIE) and cheaper tolls on the Brooklyn, Manhattan and Queensboro bridges (used more often by NYC residents).

Better yet, if it can be enforced - have different pricing via EZ Pass for cars registered in the five boroughs vs. outside of them. Though you would have to control the black market somehow.

I'd be in favor for reducing the fares for the subways and the LIIRR as well as NJ Transit. Encourage more mass transit as a trade off for an increase in price when it comes to driving. But I don't think that would ever happen.

[10023]

Originally Posted by chris08876

I'd be in favor for reducing the fares for the subways and the LIIRR as well as NJ Transit. Encourage more mass transit as a trade off for an increase in price when it comes to driving. But I don't think that would ever happen.

You mean by directing the money from tolls to the transit agencies? Because otherwise they would face a shortfall in revenue and are already underfunded.

But I think this is totally unnecessary in any event. Public transit is already cheaper than driving into Manhattan, so the cost of one really has nothing to do with the other.

People that are driving into the city are generally either 1) people with the money to do so (in which case tolls are an annoyance but not a burden); 2) suburbanites that can't be bothered to figure out the trains and think Manhattan is a place you just drive around; or 3) commercial traffic (who would just pass the extra cost, which would be modest relative to overall transport/distribution costs, to customers).

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by 10023

People that are driving into the city are generally either 1) people with the money to do so (in which case tolls are an annoyance but not a burden); 2) suburbanites that can't be bothered to figure out the trains and think Manhattan is a place you just drive around; or 3) commercial traffic (who would just pass the extra cost, which would be modest relative to overall transport/distribution costs, to customers).

Okay, so then what's the problem with increased tolls?

1) will keep driving
2) might actually pick up a train schedule (I knew a girl from Long Island who had never ridden the LIRR... huh?)
3) costs are passed along

There's a whole group of price-sensitive drivers (Group 2, plus some extra commuters) who might switch to transit if the cost equation shifted.

There's a whole other group of outer-borough residents who live on the fringes - nowhere near the LIRR and taking the bus to the subway takes too long. MTA can't/won't expand transit into these areas for decades, so I think they should partner with the private sector to provide direct bus service from these locales to the city (or at least transit hubs like Long Island City or DT Brooklyn).

[chris08876]

^^^^^

Some prefer the quietness of their cars when it comes to commuting. I can't blame some because it does suck being in a overcrowded PATH train for example or a subway line. I think the big issue with the tolls that correspond to the bridges/tunnels going to Queens and Brooklyn is that it will make living harder and can burden those who drive for a living and/or commute from far away. People in Manhattan can generally afford the high prices of living, but a lot of people will be affected by the increase in prices on the commuter side when it comes to cost, and personal burden; especially if you live in a area that doesn't have great/adequate subway coverage in Queens for example or if the cost of the train outweighs driving in.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by 10023

If you live in Queens or Brooklyn, why are you driving into Manhattan?

Congestion pricing has worked in London. The traffic isn't even that bad in the center of town here (it's worse on some of the flyovers to the west at rush hour), despite mostly narrow roads.

Looking at this map though... why should it be cheaper to cross the Verrazano or the various crossings into NJ than to get from Brooklyn to Manhattan? Make those $10 round trip and it would be more like it (leave the Midtown tunnel at $15 because that's all the suburbanites that come in on the LIE anyway).

I love it how you are here to decide why someone can or cannot go somewhere. If you live in Brooklyn or Queens, it is possibly because;
you want to
or
you are living there because Manhattan is too expensive.

In any case, your first sentence actually scares me, very totalitarian of you. I know that reeks of hyperbole but honestly, its true.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by uaarkson

I could give a flying fuck about anyone who chooses to drive into Manhattan every day for work, but commercial vehicle traffic is still an important lifeline that has been pretty smothered over the past decade.

This again shows the scary attitude I see on this forum sometimes, its the "Fuck you and what you think is alright in your life, I know what is best."

You might not 'give a flying fuck' about those workers, but they have the right to do it.

[mrnyc]

they should just reinstitute the commuter tax and leave the city alone.