The Brightline Thread

[urbanview]

Originally Posted by UrbanImpact

The trains are just as nice or nicer than their European counterparts. I've been on many of them minus the ICE. As far as the road barriers, there would be no other way other than tunneling through out all of South Florida, or elevating the whole track through South Florida which would make it too expensive. There's no other right of ways through the 3 continuous metropolises other than the other set of tracks on the CSX line that has the same situation.

Don't wanna be a debby downer, but it appears you're making excuses for this shoddy railway. In Europe they would have built a viaduct and electric wires because they wouldn't tolerate the bumpy ride or the noisy horn.

[urbanview]

Originally Posted by N830MH

Excuse me! There is no tunnels. They don't have a tunnels in South Florida.

Don't need tunnels. All you need is a viaduct and money. Of course, the USA is averse to spending money on trains. Look at California and the horrible mess of a project that is.

[UrbanImpact]

Originally Posted by urbanview

Don't wanna be a debby downer, but it appears you're making excuses for this shoddy railway. In Europe they would have built a viaduct and electric wires because they wouldn't tolerate the bumpy ride or the noisy horn.

It's not a bump ride nor does the horn go off unless someone is on the tracks. You've obviously never ridden it nor have you payed attention to the above conversations.

[UrbanImpact]

Originally Posted by urbanview

Don't need tunnels. All you need is a viaduct and money. Of course, the USA is averse to spending money on trains. Look at California and the horrible mess of a project that is.

You're missing the point, there are no other viaduct through South Florida's downtowns. The cities are built out from the ocean to the Everglades.

[urbanview]

Originally Posted by UrbanImpact

It's not a bump ride nor does the horn go off unless someone is on the tracks. You've obviously never ridden it nor have you payed attention to the above conversations.

Yeah I watched the youtube video of the ride and its clearly bumpy and noisy. The horn is going off every 20 seconds. The tracks look rough due to the shaking observed.

[urbanview]

Originally Posted by UrbanImpact

You're missing the point, there are no other viaduct through South Florida's downtowns. The cities are built out from the ocean to the Everglades.

And your missing my point. This would have been solved by now if there was enough money thrown at the problem. A viaduct can be built OVER obstacles, you know? Sadly, we don't do expensive rail in this country, we do cheap projects only. The Euros would have spent the money, but America only builds second-rate solutions to transport problems. Check out the stupid air-train in NYC.

[UrbanImpact]

Originally Posted by urbanview

And your missing my point. This would have been solved by now if there was enough money thrown at the problem. A viaduct can be built OVER obstacles, you know? Sadly, we don't do expensive rail in this country, we do cheap projects only. The Euros would have spent the money, but America only builds second-rate solutions to transport problems. Check out the stupid air-train in NYC.

Where is the money going to come from to build a 75+ mile elevated track? This is a private rail company. I don't think Sir Richard Branson is down to spend that kind of money.

[urbanview]

Originally Posted by UrbanImpact

Where is the money going to come from to build a 75+ mile elevated track? This is a private rail company. I don't think Sir Richard Branson is down to spend that kind of money.

Nowhere, cause this is America. We don't do that kind of thing here. It's not China or Europe where they spend tons on rail and transit.

[urbanview]

Originally Posted by UrbanImpact

It's not a bump ride nor does the horn go off unless someone is on the tracks. You've obviously never ridden it nor have you payed attention to the above conversations.

I hope you're right about the horn. Now, the youtube video could be old and they changed something, but that horn was damn annoying I would go outta my mind.

[aquablue]

Originally Posted by urbanview

Nowhere, cause this is America. We don't do that kind of thing here. It's not China or Europe where they spend tons on rail and transit.

That's the problem, I agree. America doesn't build things like they used to in the glory days of its maturity phase. Basically, the 21st century America is the land of "make no big plans".

[N830MH]

Folks, can you please stay on topics. Not talking about Europe or Asia. This is United States of America. So please stay on your topics.

[plutonicpanda]

Originally Posted by UrbanImpact

Where is the money going to come from to build a 75+ mile elevated track? This is a private rail company. I don't think Sir Richard Branson is down to spend that kind of money.

The root of the issue is the private owned nature of the rail lines. It shouldn't so. This needs to be a government project for the greater good and not one looking to turn a profit. Norway is building an 30 mile undersea tunnel with fully directional interchanges and the U.S. is unable to build a 80 mile viaduct for a train? The train in its current form is mickey mouse bullshit. This country can do better. It's getting close for a 8 or even 10 lane expansion of I-95 throughout the state of Florida-- it would be nice to build rail and see if traffic count growth stalls so widening the freeway isn't necessary for a time to come.

PS, to induce riders rail needs to be built as efficiently as possible which includes eliminating at grade crossings, subsidizing higher frequencies, lower ticket fares, etc.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by plutonicpanda

The root of the issue is the private owned nature of the rail lines. It shouldn't so. This needs to be a government project for the greater good and not one looking to turn a profit. Norway is building an 30 mile undersea tunnel with fully directional interchanges and the U.S. is unable to build a 80 mile viaduct for a train?

Norway’s government decided to fund a 30 mile undersea tunnel, so did Britain and France decades ago. What took Norway so long? Why didn’t Norway build this tunnel 50 years or more ago? We’re they too busy building tunnels for ships?

When you take all political issues to minimum level, the USA government would rather have private enterprise fund anything, including railroads. It is only at the very last minute does it want to step in.

Every transit system in the USA was owned privately initially, local governments stepped in to provide the services only after private enterprise pulled out. No transit agency in the USA earns a profit, the main reason why private enterprise wanted out.

As long as private enterprise wants to provide freight services at a profit on their railroads, the USA government will continue to let them do so. You do not fix something that is not broken. You do not kill the goose that lays the golden eggs!

[plutonicpanda]

Originally Posted by electricron

Norway’s government decided to fund a 30 mile undersea tunnel, so did Britain and France decades ago. What took Norway so long? Why didn’t Norway build this tunnel 50 years or more ago? We’re they too busy building tunnels for ships?

When you take all political issues to minimum level, the USA government would rather have private enterprise fund anything, including railroads. It is only at the very last minute does it want to step in.

Every transit system in the USA was owned privately initially, local governments stepped in to provide the services only after private enterprise pulled out. No transit agency in the USA earns a profit, the main reason why private enterprise wanted out.

As long as private enterprise wants to provide freight services at a profit on their railroads, the USA government will continue to let them do so. You do not fix something that is not broken. You do not kill the goose that lays the golden eggs!

Good point! I only want to see the best interest of the country at play and not a quick buck to be made. Not even the NEC brings in profit though those claims are made it is malarkey.

[urbanview]

Originally Posted by electricron

Norway’s government decided to fund a 30 mile undersea tunnel, so did Britain and France decades ago. What took Norway so long? Why didn’t Norway build this tunnel 50 years or more ago? We’re they too busy building tunnels for ships?

When you take all political issues to minimum level, the USA government would rather have private enterprise fund anything, including railroads. It is only at the very last minute does it want to step in.

Every transit system in the USA was owned privately initially, local governments stepped in to provide the services only after private enterprise pulled out. No transit agency in the USA earns a profit, the main reason why private enterprise wanted out.

As long as private enterprise wants to provide freight services at a profit on their railroads, the USA government will continue to let them do so. You do not fix something that is not broken. You do not kill the goose that lays the golden eggs!

You are defending the current situation, the status quo. No private company is building hsr in America, it won’t work ever. It doesn’t work in France, Germany, Spain, China, etc, etc

This is A country where they spend billions of dollars every month on the military and millions on highways, but refuse to pony up for a rail tunnel into NYC that is falling apart. A country that is using antiquated railways and subpar urban transit, yet they have no problems buying missiles and bombs for billions. A country that clearly is biased against trains/transit overall and refuses to bring our trains up to speed with the rest of the civilized world. The government isn’t spending money on rail because the right pro oil machine considers transit commie and is biased against it.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by urbanview

You are defending the current situation, the status quo. No private company is building hsr in America, it won’t work ever. It doesn’t work in France, Germany, Spain, China, etc, etc

This is A country where they spend billions of dollars every month on the military and millions on highways, but refuse to pony up for a rail tunnel into NYC that is falling apart. A country that is using antiquated railways and subpar urban transit, yet they have no problems buying missiles and bombs for billions. A country that clearly is biased against trains/transit overall and refuses to bring our trains up to speed with the rest of the civilized world. The government isn’t spending money on rail because the right pro oil machine considers transit commie and is biased against it.

Texas Central is planning building HSR in Texas between Dallas and Houston, Virgin (Brightline) is planning building HSR mostly in California between Victorville and Las Vegas. Planning is not doing, so let us wait to see if any fruit comes from the seeds being sowed.

Not one city, county, or state government helps to fund America’s military. It all rests on the federal government to fund. So the percentage of the federal government budget looks higher than what it really is when you consider every government in America.
Let us take public education as just one example. The federal government spends just 8% of the total on public education, the other 92% comes from other lesser, local governments. On average, 47% from states and 45% local.
If public education was entirely funded by the federal government, assuming using the same taxes collected for public education by others, it would jump from $68 billion to $850 billion.

That’s about the same amount spent and possibly slightly more than spent on national defense.

Math = x/92 = 68/8; cross multiplying 8x=68x92; x = 68x92/8; x=782
782+68 = 850
Source of data = wiki
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit...t_of_Education

[urbanflight]

Originally Posted by plutonicpanda

Very simple idea but not so simple to actually implement. Tunnel the rail and use the median where the rail currently is to build an elevated freeway to add more lanes for cars. It's a win-win for everyone. Better train service and better flowing traffic.

Consider air and noise pollution, environmental damages, inefficient energy consumption, urban sprawl, sedentarism and health problems, lost in urban land for housing, social services and economic activities, etc.

[plutonicpanda]

Originally Posted by urbanflight

Consider air and noise pollution, environmental damages, inefficient energy consumption, urban sprawl, sedentarism and health problems, lost in urban land for housing, social services and economic activities, etc.

All things that can be solved.

I am not sure what you are referring to with social services and economic actives as more mobility makes those things better.

Better flowing traffic puts of less emissions than gridlocked traffic does. Emissions are a result of the car engine itself and not the freeway so that issue can be solved without neglecting additional capacity.

The land lost in urban housing is minimal to none as my plan uses land that will not be occupied due the trains being moved underground. The land needed could be from access and exit points or possibly pier supports needing more room than the median would provide and this could be overcome by redesigning the freeway shoulders to substandard width meaning no fed monies or possibly a small amount of additional ROW needed but this is unlikely in many areas. Even if property acquisitions are needed plenty of land for redevelopment already exists causing areas to become denser that otherwise might not be. With that said I fail to see how this is a big issue.

Pretty much the rest of the problems you pointed are redundant. The only other one is the environmental issues which relate to health issues due to fine particulate and Co2 emissions which can all be solved with better car and engine technology.

Any sedentary lifestyles can be traced to personal decisions but certainly not that of additional freeway capacity allowing traffic to move faster with more cars flowing through getting people from point a to point b quicker. This gives them more free time to exercise or do whatever they want to do. Funny enough I see no mention of this when it comes to extending train lines which is a bit of a double standard much like how the induced demand theory is held.

Noise pollution, again health related, can be dealt with with improvements to road surfaces, tire technologies, and sound wall improvements.

The only other thing is the energy consumption equation and obviously as we all know it is much more efficient to pack people in like sardines and to that I say no thank you I'll keep my car and continue being inefficient in your eyes. Talk to your therapist about it if it bothers you but for the hundreds of thousands of commuters who need to get home their time is more important. I honestly don't know what else to say but yes I did factor in all of that.

[bobdreamz]

Virgin Trains USA land clearing underway for tracks near Beachline in Cocoa
Rick Neale, Florida Today Published 2:45 p.m. ET Aug. 1, 2019

Heavy-equipment operators are tearing down trees and thick vegetation to clear room for Virgin Trains USA tracks along State Road 528 in Cocoa.

Nearby, thousands of gray concrete railroad ties lie stacked near State Road 524 and Industry Road for the future passenger rail line, which will extend westward to Orlando International Airport.

"The Brightline Trains, soon to be Virgin Trains, construction team is underway with Phase 2 construction connecting Central Florida to South Florida," the company announced Tuesday on its LinkedIn page.

"A massive undertaking, one of the nation’s largest privately funded infrastructure projects, includes the development of 170 miles of new track. This encompasses 225 million pounds of American steel and 490,000 ties," the post stated.

Formerly known as All Aboard Florida and Brightline, Virgin Trains is building a $4 billion rail network between Miami and Orlando. The privately owned company now commutes passengers between Miami, Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach.

Virgin Trains will extend those tracks northward along the Florida East Coast Railway railbed to "the Cocoa curve" near the Interstate 95-Beachline interchange. From there, tracks will bend to the west and follow the Beachline to the Orlando airport.






^ Thousands of Virgin Trains USA concrete railroad ties are stacked near State Road 524 and Industry Road in Cocoa. (Photo: MALCOLM DENEMARK/FLORIDA TODAY)

https://www.floridatoday.com/story/n...oa/1868329001/

[Hatman]

Great news and photos! It is so cool to see construction of this segment after so many years of waiting!

One thing I would add to this discussion of viaduct vs. grade-crossings is that VTUSA shares tracks with freight trains. Big, heavy, ginormous American freight trains. Building a viaduct for light-weight zippy electric trains is one thing, but building a bridge for the typical monster USA freight train is quite another.

Why share tracks with freight trains? Because that is absolutely critical to the profitability of this service. Remember, when Amtrak says it earns a profit on the Northeast Corridor, it only means an operating profit - specifically running and maintaining the trains. The tracks (as well as the bridges and tunnels and stations and all the other infrastructure) are not counted in Amtrak's profitability calculations, and if they were then Amtrak would have to admit a financial loss.

It is well known that VTUSA's entire business plan assumes they can make the same sort of operating profits as Amtrak's Northeast Corridor. But that's only operating profit! VTUSA would still lose all kinds of money if they had to maintain their tracks - but they don't.
The Florida East Coast Railway will still be running their freight service on the line, and the double-tracking projects that enable the passenger trains to run in the first place will also benefit the freight service. The 'All About Freight' people were not entirely wrong. Railroads have - both historically and presently - been most profitable hauling freight as compared to passengers. Throughout most of railroading history in the USA, passenger service was only profitable because of the mail service that ran at the head-end of most passenger trains. When mail contracts went to trucks and airplanes, private US railroads began a serious push to purge their passenger services.

...Anyway, what we will end up with is a highly-profitable freight transportation system with a lot of excess capacity. Empty tracks with no trains are an idle investment. Idle investments are potential money that is being lost. How do you capture that potential money? Run some passenger trains! Passenger trains are light and don't damage the tracks (comparatively). They start and stop quickly and don't get in the way of freight services - and on a completely scheduled railroad, such as the Florida East Coast (a rare practice among US Railroads), there won't be a lot of conflicts anyway.

Simplified, the freight trains pay for the tracks and infrastructure. The passenger trains profit off the excess capacity. Stations and other passenger infrastructure are paid for by other developments (residential and commercial towers, for example).

I find this model extremely exciting because it can be used by other railroads in very similar situations. Miami and Orlando are not the only city pair where this model makes sense. Once VTUSA begins to show a profits from its investment, I'm hopefull that there will be pressure on other railroads make similar investments in other corridors. For-profit passenger trains could stage a limited comeback in optimized corridors, and they could do it very quickly and with very little government involvement.
It is great to consider building a 70-mile concrete viaduct down the Florida East Coast. But to have passenger trains begin rolling now, or at least within my lifetime, and not just in Florida but also in California/Nevada and potentially Georgia, Texas, etc... That beats all hypotheticals and is worth a few grade crossings.
IMO, of course.