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  #6421  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 8:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dirt View Post

EDIt: Hats off for being able to inject commentary on moneyed interests into every post.
Someone should.

If not then most blog entries become voices of a "network establishment", where outcomes driven by those with financial muscle will not only be inevitable, as most outcomes are, but uncontested. Instead of debate, forums will degrade into either the outright self-promotion of an individual or a group for financial purposes, or into a social pecking order- where each blogger has a place defined by those few who have group forgiveness to flex their "power."

Regardless, in infrastructure lay out, macro scale city planning, zoning, choosing architects for major commissions, picking prime contractors, etc., the role of the powerful in building or in planning anything significant cannot be separated from what is to be built or planned. Complicate this fact by how few masters of power are world class architects, master city planners, transportation system designers, or engineers and mediocre outcomes are almost inevitable.

This is true in a dictatorship, in a democracy, or in a republic.

Look through this existential prism, and you almost always will get closer to the truth.
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Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf

Last edited by Wizened Variations; Feb 3, 2014 at 8:19 AM.
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  #6422  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 12:44 PM
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Bikes have been menacing hikers for years. But look, the two-wheeled scourge is even spreading its spokes into the snowed-over backcountry now.

Quote:

Lipsher: Conflicts grow over biking in the mountains


Mountain bikers philosophically have been more aligned with hikers, cross-country skiers and other "quiet use" types than with snowmobilers, dirt bikers and ATV riders.

But increasingly, the two-wheeled folks are becoming embroiled in conflicts with other trail users, and bikers now are finding themselves on the other side of the philosophical divide and risking alienating traditional allies.

From a long, unflattering history of creating illegal, unsustainable trails to a new trend — winter "fat" bikes that compete with skiers and snowshoers on snow-covered trails — biking now represents an intrusive activity that affects others in the woods
http://www.denverpost.com/lipsher/ci...king-mountains
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  #6423  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 3:00 PM
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I can't tell if you're posting this as a joke?
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  #6424  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 3:14 PM
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LoDo groups rally to revise plan they say will clog streets with buses

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  #6425  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 3:17 PM
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The tone was a joke, but I think the article is very real. And I certainly fall on the side that believes bicycles are no more appropriate in the backcountry than ATVs are. They tear up trails and make life harder on all other users. And certainly not on snow.
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  #6426  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 5:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
The tone was a joke, but I think the article is very real. And I certainly fall on the side that believes bicycles are no more appropriate in the backcountry than ATVs are. They tear up trails and make life harder on all other users. And certainly not on snow.
Christ, so where do we ride? In a small box in Highlands Ranch so as not to disturb you?
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  #6427  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 5:04 PM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
And certainly not on snow.
Why not? Riding on snow protects the ground underneath. As a frequent backcountry skier, I would rather share the trail with a fat bike than snowmobiles belching smoke and noise.
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  #6428  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 5:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Denver Dweller View Post
Remember folks, the scourge of buses are terrible for pedestrians. Especially local buses that have *gasp* poor people as riders.
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  #6429  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 5:12 PM
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Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
Remember folks, the scourge of buses are terrible for pedestrians. Especially local buses that have *gasp* poor people as riders.
Quote:
"Some have said it could be 350 buses on one street, in one day," said LoDo District Inc. director Holly Barrett. The group represents businesses in the area. "We just think that is just excessive."

. . . .

RTD says the highest number of buses running weekdays on 18th Street between Wynkoop and Wazee is 428 — about the same number that now travel 15th Street between Wynkoop and Wazee.


. . .

"We welcome the increase in pedestrian activity, density and energy that the project brings," said [Lower Downtown Neighborhood Association president Josh Davies.]

They're also supportive of the Free MetroRide, a fleet of 60-foot articulated buses that will travel from Union Station to Civic Center Station along 18th and 19th streets. The buses will operate only during peak hours, running every five minutes.

Right. So his organization can be summed up as the following: NO SMART DEVELOPMENT DOWNTOWN. And people wonder why some of us here have all but called many people in/near downtown suburbanites in professional clothing.
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  #6430  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 5:15 PM
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Never mind. I don't want to get too off-topic.

Last edited by awholeparade; Feb 3, 2014 at 5:43 PM.
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  #6431  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 5:18 PM
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Originally Posted by seventwenty View Post
Christ, so where do we ride? In a small box in Highlands Ranch so as not to disturb you?
Bike paths, obviously. You've got 50 miles of river to ride along, go use it. Plus, plenty of mountain biking areas that are not backcountry trails.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverRider2 View Post
Why not? Riding on snow protects the ground underneath. As a frequent backcountry skier, I would rather share the trail with a fat bike than snowmobiles belching smoke and noise.
Of course, but I'd still rather share the trail with neither mechanical user. The rutting is highly annoying to a snowshoer, and downright dangerous for a skier.
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  #6432  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 5:24 PM
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Only quasi-Denver related but in regards to the 'first mass transit superbowl' NJ Transit flopped bigger than the Broncos.

It took 2-3 hours each way for us from Penn Station, and talking to others in our hotel we were lucky.

nj.com's coverage of the backup on the way home
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  #6433  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 5:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
Bike paths, obviously. You've got 50 miles of river to ride along, go use it. Plus, plenty of mountain biking areas that are not backcountry trails.

I support your separation ideas then: No walkers allowed on the Cherry Creek trail.
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  #6434  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 5:54 PM
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I know what you're getting at, but it's a multi-use path. Don't make it so easy for Bunt!
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  #6435  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 6:02 PM
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Originally Posted by seventwenty View Post
Right. So his organization can be summed up as the following: NO SMART DEVELOPMENT DOWNTOWN. And people wonder why some of us here have all but called many people in/near downtown suburbanites in professional clothing.
Though I bet that his organization has no problem with the cyclists that will infrequent Union Station.

Bikes = small impact due to low use. Buses = large impact due to high use (and less desirable people). Or something along those lines, I'm playing fast and loose....

Can you imagine how many passengers those 350 buses will bring daily?
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"You don't strike, you just go to work everyday and do your job real half-ass. That's the American way!" -Homer Simpson

All of us who are concerned for peace and triumph of reason and justice must be keenly aware how small an influence reason and honest good will exert upon events in the political field. ~Albert Einstein

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  #6436  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 6:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
Though I bet that his organization has no problem with the cyclists that will infrequent Union Station.

Bikes = small impact due to low use. Buses = large impact due to high use (and less desirable people). Or something along those lines, I'm playing fast and loose....

Can you imagine how many passengers those 350 buses will bring daily?
Probably about the same amount of people currently, but don't forget "traffic" being a problem.

Damn it, we're about to cross the development-transportation streams again. Cirrus might yell at us.
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  #6437  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 6:36 PM
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Adding to the discussion:

Going carless in Denver easier now with B-cycle and carshare programs
Quote:
What's it like to live a car-less life? Not as easy as it is in an East Coast city with a solid public transit system. But not as hard as you might think, either. Here are the pros and cons, and some accompanying observations.

-First, some context: I live about five miles from the downtown buildings where I work. That's an easy bike ride (unless the streets are icy) and a pretty uncomplicated commute by car.
-And sometimes I use RTD. Taking the bus is more complicated.
-The bus closest to my house doesn't start its run until after 6:30 a.m. I need to be downtown by 5:30 a.m. several times each week to teach an exercise class. From December to March, the B-cycle is not an option, because the bikes are available only from 6:30 a.m. to 9:30 p.m. during winter.
We need to be focusing more of our efforts on the public transit system to transition it from being a solid commuter system to a solid transit system. RTD is great for a 9-5 job getting from the suburbs to DT, it's everything else that is incredibly difficult.
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"You don't strike, you just go to work everyday and do your job real half-ass. That's the American way!" -Homer Simpson

All of us who are concerned for peace and triumph of reason and justice must be keenly aware how small an influence reason and honest good will exert upon events in the political field. ~Albert Einstein

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  #6438  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 7:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post

Bikes = small impact due to low use. Buses = large impact due to high use (and less desirable people). Or something along those lines, I'm playing fast and loose....

Can you imagine how many passengers those 350 buses will bring daily?
This is the inevitable consequence of poor urban planning.

To start:

Let's assume that the decision to place the bus station between the DUS light station and Union Station was the correct thing to do.

So we have an underground linear bus station that has to have ways to enter and ways to leave. In addition, these axis roads have to feed into the road grid in some fashion. The question is how.

As part of the DUS schema, a minimum of land was devoted to public transportation, and, a maximum to quick real estate development. This schema pushed the development of as large a street grid as possible within the former rail yards.* To the northwest of the Light Rail end of the Bus Station, land between the 3 existing freight rail tracks and parks paralleling the S. Platte were laid out into the Riverfront Complex. To the northeast of the Light Rail Station, 19th was extended southeast, and Chestnut road was extended into another road grid labeled Oakwood.

The road layout forces traffic exiting the northwest end of the Bus station to make 5 turns over about a half of mile to get to 20th St which provides the quickest access to I-25. This road is choked when the Rockies are near .500 (had to change that, ). Coors Field parking, in large part, is accessed from 20th. In addition, while access to I-25 to the north is fair, access from 20th St to 1-25 south requires more time spent at a couple of lights.

The south end is far worse, here the traffic exits directly into already built up portions of Lodo and streets with stop lights, high traffic density etc. Unlike the better road accessible Civic Station, the south Bus exit does not quickly access large streets such as Broadway, and, Colfax.

And, as is often the case, those parties who will deal with radically increased bus traffic are only now verbalizing their concern.

Lesson learned for other cities:

Put the central bus stations somewhere else on the rail network, perhaps one or two stations away from the core railroad station. Huge bus stations need quick access to arterials to function, and, designing such complexes requires room to put in direct access to freeway on ramps, and, to 4 to 6 lane roads.

***************

In Denver, the best place for such a bus station would have been south of the Pepsi Center Station, perhaps at a properly configured W line/Corridor line Station complex with a fast connection to Civic Station. Colfax could have been accessed directly by bus for West and North Connections as well as East (and South bound local) Bound connections. South bound connects A 4 minute light rail trip would have provided access to DUS.

Again, we are beginning to reap mistakes set in concrete and steel.

Wait until 200,000 or more users flood into the DUS complex and calls are made for cut and cover tunnels for bus usage under downtown streets.

*This extension of the street grid around the stub ends of the light rail northeast of the DUS Light Rail station has reduced the size of a light car storage yard. The small size, as laid out, reduces the storage ability to both inhibit train frequencies into DUS light and affect the length of trains that can be temporarily stored there. For now, a passenger platform needs to be QUICKLY laid between tracks 2 and 3, despite difficulties to passengers to get to the north track when tracks 1 and 2 are occupied. Ideally, an underground user tunnel should be put in west of the buried bus complex, and, the fence between tracks 2 and 3, in large part should remain.
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Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf

Last edited by Wizened Variations; Feb 3, 2014 at 7:13 PM.
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  #6439  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 7:05 PM
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Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
Remember folks, the scourge of buses are terrible for pedestrians. Especially local buses that have *gasp* poor people as riders.
If the guy quoted in article had chosen a route other than the 0 as the one he'd like to see stopped short of precious LoDo, it might have been harder. But that is a total softball - rich Icehouse loft owners not wanting the 0-riding crowd going past Civic Center.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizened Variations View Post
Wait until 200,000 or more users flood into the DUS complex and calls are made for cut and cover tunnels for bus usage under downtown streets.
Good! Let the calls ring out. A shared downtown bus/light rail tunnel (see Seattle) would be a phenomenal addition to Denver.

To touch on one other point you made - I don't think the outside-downtown bus station works for a commuter system. It works in other cities with much more dispersed transit user patterns. But you gotta dump commuters as close to the jobs as possible if you don't want them clogging up your highways, which is RTD's primary focus.
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  #6440  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 7:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
If the guy quoted in article had chosen a route other than the 0 as the one he'd like to see stopped short of precious LoDo, it might have been harder. But that is a total softball - rich Icehouse loft owners not wanting the 0-riding crowd going past Civic Center.



Good! Let the calls ring out. A shared downtown bus/light rail tunnel (see Seattle) would be a phenomenal addition to Denver.

To touch on one other point you made - I don't think the outside-downtown bus station works for a commuter system. It works in other cities with much more dispersed transit user patterns. But you gotta dump commuters as close to the jobs as possible if you don't want them clogging up your highways, which is RTD's primary focus.
Of course, Bunt, in order to get more people out of the cars you have to make the designs work in terms of time spent commuting, reduced waiting at platforms, frequency, and, the PERCEPTION of speed. The problem with the bus station as designed as not intent, but final result.

A central bus station that works must have great bus access. Put a bus station in a near by space that has the potential to let both rail traffic and bus traffic interact quickly and the complex works.

Basically, RTD had to cram a grand scheme into insufficient space. The problem in many respects is purely a function of not being able to port bus traffic quickly onto freeways and/or arterials due to a combination of private property developers and city/RTD cooperation resulting in a road grid which limits good access.

This same problem affects storing and switching light rail vehicles for out bound DUS traffic- land that could be used to increase transit through put is rapidly being built up with 4 and 5 story stick wall rentals (in particular the property between light rail stub lines Chestnut Place and 19th Streets).

Remember the entire space was a big stretch of rusting railroad tracks 20 years ago. All this started with a blank sheet of paper.

**************
Bunt, cut and cover tunnels are always far cheaper to build before buildings are built.
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Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf

Last edited by Wizened Variations; Feb 3, 2014 at 7:37 PM. Reason: EDIT had to add one point
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