HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #61  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2013, 12:45 AM
dc_denizen's Avatar
dc_denizen dc_denizen is offline
Selfie-stick vendor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: New York Suburbs
Posts: 10,999
Honestly some of those aerials are no more impressive than Phoenix or LA, similar cities from a planning perspective (small lots, grids, right angles). Levittown style single family tract homes. I don't really mourn these losses. Again, they could easily be replaced if society made such a decision.

Last edited by dc_denizen; Feb 5, 2013 at 2:12 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #62  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2013, 1:05 AM
fflint's Avatar
fflint fflint is offline
Triptastic Gen X Snoozer
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 22,207
I suppose I should go in and edit the data out of that 'Metro Detroit' Wikipedia entry. The numbers are not sourced and at odds with the main Detroit entry, which are sourced to the Census.
__________________
"You need both a public and a private position." --Hillary Clinton, speaking behind closed doors to the National Multi-Family Housing Council, 2013
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #63  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2013, 1:45 AM
CCs77 CCs77 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by fflint View Post
I suppose I should go in and edit the data out of that 'Metro Detroit' Wikipedia entry. The numbers are not sourced and at odds with the main Detroit entry, which are sourced to the Census.
Yes, that was rare, I din't understand what was happening, until I went tothe two links and realize were different entries with different numbers. I guess you are right, the "detroit" entry seems more reliable, although the links to the sources wont work anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hudkina View Post
The empty lands immediately surrounding downtown will be easy to redevelop once the Greater Downtown area achieves a certain level of success. They will likely be replaced by the type of development normally reserved for "greenfields" along the urban fringe of other metropolitan areas. They will also be home to the types of largescale parkland that was missing from much of the central city at its peak.
Yes, it seems exactly what already happened in some redeveloped areas, they started from scratch, and wiped out almost everything that was there, including the street layout. Not much different to what happened in other cities when they did urban redevelopments with housing projects, only that this time instead of apartment blocks to lower classes by the public sector, they did predominatly suburban type developments to middle class by the private sector.

This is the Elmwood Park neighborhood, only about 1,5 kilometers east of downtown. in 1940 (from the aerial picture of monkey ronin) and in 2010. As you can see, practically the only things recognizable are Gratiot Ave, E Vernor Hwy, the train trench, the corner of Elmwood Cemetery and the building of the Bunche Elementary-Middle School (in the lower right corner) one of the few buildings that still remain.

The last image is the 2010 one with 1940 grid superimposed.



Reply With Quote
     
     
  #64  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2013, 2:01 AM
Evergrey's Avatar
Evergrey Evergrey is offline
Eurosceptic
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 24,339
I won't be convinced until hudkina fires another salvo of upscale suburban Detroit photos.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #65  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2013, 2:15 AM
Rizzo Rizzo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 7,280
Quote:
Originally Posted by hudkina View Post
You do realize that much of the outer neighborhoods looks like this:


Greenwich Park, Detroit, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


Norham, Detroit, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


037 by hudkina, on Flickr


Mexicantown, Detroit, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


Condon, Detroit, Michigan by hudkina, on Flickr


How exactly do you expect those neighborhoods to turn to cornfields?

Yes, there will be dozens of often contiguous square miles of mostly empty land, but to say that all 130 sq. mi. outside of the core will return to "cornfields" shows you just how little you actually understand the city. Detroit certainly has urban problems on a scale few cities have ever had, but it really wouldn't be that difficult to affect real change that will make these neighborhoods desirable to a certain number of people. Obviously middle-class white families will never return to these neighborhoods in our lifetimes, but others will. Southwest Detroit is a good example of this. The area is home to tens of thousands of hispanics who come to the city, despite the problems. There are other areas (such as the borderlands with Hamtramck and Dearborn) that also attract a certain number of immigrants. You can't possibly write off the entire city's future based on the economic collapse of the last five years.
I did some work for non-profits studying these outer areas mostly around NE Detroit. For the most part they are or were pretty stable at the time as you show. Neatly cut lawns, and many streets had low vacancy. But what we were discovering is that vacancy was picking up at an alarming rate. Essentially we were tasked with providing an emergency plan. Have a housing condition survey and template that would either categorize houses for "save" or demolish. We also provided a plan to help protect houses that had become vacant. All the home in good condition are very valuable assets. Well built and will stand for another century so as long as people don't break in and trash them. The issue is there's so little resources to maintain vacant buildings and residents nearby have their own problems to deal with, let alone maintaining a vacant home next door.

But yeah, I don't think many people realize there's plenty of intact neighborhoods in the city. I think it's because so much of the neighborhoods around the core have emptied out and that's all people see.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #66  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2013, 2:19 AM
dc_denizen's Avatar
dc_denizen dc_denizen is offline
Selfie-stick vendor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: New York Suburbs
Posts: 10,999
Let me ask this - where are the middle class black neighborhoods of the city? How much of the city percentagewise is PG County or NE DC style, relatively stable African American nabes?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #67  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2013, 2:54 AM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
Let me ask this - where are the middle class black neighborhoods of the city? How much of the city percentagewise is PG County or NE DC style, relatively stable African American nabes?
Northwest Detroit is the middle-class, relatively stable black area. If you want to poke around Google Streetview, look between Woodward and Livernois, from McNichols to 8 Mile Rd., or around Grand River/Fenkell, or around Sinai Hospital (or really anything along Outer Drive in NW Detroit).

But Oakland County, just to the north of Northwest Detroit, has a number of middle class, majority black areas, especially Southfield and Lathrup Village.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #68  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2013, 3:22 AM
pdxtex's Avatar
pdxtex pdxtex is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,119
Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
Let me ask this - where are the middle class black neighborhoods of the city? How much of the city percentagewise is PG County or NE DC style, relatively stable African American nabes?
southfield!
__________________
Portland!! Where young people formerly went to retire.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #69  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2013, 3:28 AM
hudkina hudkina is offline
Honored Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 7,445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergrey View Post
I won't be convinced until hudkina fires another salvo of upscale suburban Detroit photos.
I'm sorry, I guess it was rude to post pictures when someone specifically asked to see them...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #70  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2013, 3:40 AM
dc_denizen's Avatar
dc_denizen dc_denizen is offline
Selfie-stick vendor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: New York Suburbs
Posts: 10,999
I certainly appreciated the pics! good stuff
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #71  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2013, 3:49 AM
hudkina hudkina is offline
Honored Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 7,445
9.3% of Metro Detroit's black households earn at least $100,000. Of the 25 metro areas with the largest number of black households, it ranks 16th, putting it at the lower end ahead of just Orlando, St. Louis, New Orleans, Tampa, Birmingham, Jacksonville, Memphis, Cleveland, and Cincinnati.

In raw numbers, it ranks 11th behind New York, Washington, Atlanta, Chicago, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Houston, Baltimore, Dallas, and Miami. Just under 34,000 Metro Detroit black households earn at least $100,000. In comparison, nearly 28% (145,000) of Washington's black households earn at least $100,000. I would bet that within the next decade or so, Washington will have more black households earning at least $100,000 than even New York. It already has the highest percentage among major metro areas.

So while Detroit certainly has quite a few black middle-class (and upper middle-class) neighborhoods, I wouldn't necessarily compare it to Washington. Few cities can generate the type of wealth you see in Washington.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #72  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2013, 5:53 AM
Chicago103's Avatar
Chicago103 Chicago103 is offline
Future Mayor of Chicago
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 6,060
Quote:
Originally Posted by animatedmartian View Post

Source: National Post
So the only non-hispanic white majority part of Detroit left is that tiny section attached to the northeast corner of Hamtramck? I also imagine greater downtown Detroit and perhaps the hispanic section on the southwest side must have significant white minorities.
__________________
Devout Chicagoan, political moderate and paleo-urbanist.

"Auto-centric suburban sprawl is the devil physically manifesting himself in the built environment."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #73  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2013, 6:13 AM
tablemtn tablemtn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 871
Quote:
Doesn't seem to be stopping developers in Chicago.
Developers really aren't building much in the parts of Chicago where very high murder rates prevail. Similarly, most of Detroit's new activity is clustered in the corridor from the downtown riverfront up past Wayne State and into Midtown. That's one of the safest sections of the city.

But wide areas are just not safe in the least. A 70-year-old man in Detroit was forced to shoot two assailants recently in a school parking lot because he was being robbed while escorting a couple of schoolgirls to a car. That's not the sort of thing most people want to have to deal with when they choose a place to live. It's no fun to have to be on your guard with your hand on your pistol just to walk around outside in broad swaths of your own town.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #74  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2013, 8:26 AM
animatedmartian's Avatar
animatedmartian animatedmartian is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,945
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago103 View Post
So the only non-hispanic white majority part of Detroit left is that tiny section attached to the northeast corner of Hamtramck? I also imagine greater downtown Detroit and perhaps the hispanic section on the southwest side must have significant white minorities.
Well, it's by census tract. And for much of the city, the population numbers for a census tract are so low that a majority isn't really that significant.

The one by Hamtramck on the map has 1,268 whites and 1,073 blacks out of 4,000 residents. And actually, that map is misleading because there's 1,213 Bangladeshi and 400 Asian Indians (1,613 Asians). That's a majority Asian census tract!

The downtown area is the same deal too. Each census tract, at most, has about 4 or 5 thousand residents and maybe a few hundred of them are whites.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #75  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2013, 5:41 PM
ssiguy ssiguy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 10,659
It makes me very sad to see how a once great city has been brought to it's knees.

The economic dislocation certainly was a factor but that happens to many cities but they don't implode like Detroit. Detroit's demise has far more to do with corruption, horrid planning, and racial tensions.

Cleveland, which is often compared to Detroit has managed to turn it's economy and prospects around. It has a long way to go but it's downtown and Euclid corridors are booming. It's downtown has become one of the most vibrant, liveable, attractive, and welcoming in the US and the same can be said of Pittsburg.

Clev/Pitts invested in their citiy's urban transit systems, downtown liveability issues, and acknowledged that their economy of yesterday is gone forever, accepted it, and have moved on. They also worked more dilegently on racial issues that contributed to their declines. Cleveland city population's decline has recently ceased and the downtown population is growing faster that it has in decades.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #76  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2013, 5:46 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
It makes me very sad to see how a once great city has been brought to it's knees.

The economic dislocation certainly was a factor but that happens to many cities but they don't implode like Detroit. Detroit's demise has far more to do with corruption, horrid planning, and racial tensions.

Cleveland, which is often compared to Detroit has managed to turn it's economy and prospects around. It has a long way to go but it's downtown and Euclid corridors are booming. It's downtown has become one of the most vibrant, liveable, attractive, and welcoming in the US and the same can be said of Pittsburg.

Clev/Pitts invested in their citiy's urban transit systems, downtown liveability issues, and acknowledged that their economy of yesterday is gone forever, accepted it, and have moved on. They also worked more dilegently on racial issues that contributed to their declines. Cleveland city population's decline has recently ceased and the downtown population is growing faster that it has in decades.
This is pretty much Exhibit A re. my general point. I don't get it, but I guess perceptions count more than reality.

None of this is supported by data ("worked more dilligently on racial issues"; "city population decline has recently ceased", "managed to turn economy around") but people go with it nonetheless. The Census data doesn't jibe with the narrative.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #77  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2013, 6:42 PM
kool maudit's Avatar
kool maudit kool maudit is offline
video et taceo
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 13,867
hudkina's right. detroit is totally ok. it's how we should be. broken windows and meth winos in the empire state. because westchester is loving life.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #78  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2013, 7:29 PM
hudkina hudkina is offline
Honored Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 7,445
I'm sorry. Where did I say Detroit is totally ok?
What I don't understand is that if I'm not actively participating in Detroit-bashing, than people are under the impression that I don't see or acknowledge the massive problems the region and especially the city have faced. Just because I am still optimistic about certain aspects of the city's future, doesn't mean I don't recognize that large chunks of the central city are in utter ruin, crime and poverty endanger the prosperity of the remaining neighborhoods, and the central city's financial collapse is looming. Yes, Detroit is the worst major American city. I FUCKING KNOW! Don't you think I and every other person who chooses to live in this region know that? Do you really think we give two shits that there are 15% more young adults in Seattle? Do you think we care that Cleveland has more miles of rail transit? Do you think that being constantly reminded that we are the laughing stock of middle-class, white wannabe-hipster is going to change how we feel about our city? We don't care. We live our lives, regardless of where we rank in the latest armchair analyst's data-ranking on why we should move to Seattle or Dallas or Atlanta.

Last edited by hudkina; Feb 5, 2013 at 7:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #79  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2013, 8:52 PM
Nantais's Avatar
Nantais Nantais is offline
aka GM on SSC
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Nantes, Rezé
Posts: 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch.G, Ch.G View Post
Not a stupid question at all. It was called the Great Migration. You can read more about it here and here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
The black population in every major U.S. city increased rapidly from the end of WWII until the 1980's.

This was called the Great Migration, and involved rural blacks in the American South moving to bigger cities for economic opportunity (and, to a certain extent, especially in the earlier years, to escape discrimination).

The biggest growth in black population was in cities with a manufacturing base that were relatively close to the South.

Midwestern cities with a manufacturing base, especially Detroit, Chicago, and Cleveland, received huge black populations. The major Northeastern cities (except for Boston) also received huge populations (DC also because federal jobs didn't discriminate, for the most part). And in the West, LA and Oakland had huge increase, with folks working in the shipyards and other new opportunities.
I've already heard about the Great Migration but I didn't think it was so important. I mean, it's a really huge growth in Black population between 1950 and 1980. Also, why was it apparently more important in Détroit than in other northeastern american cities ? And, on another scale, why Blacks moved predominantly to the inner city and not to some suburbs ? Why did it happen essentially after the WW2 and not earlier, because I guess it was already not that cool to be a Black in the South in the late 1800's or in the early 1900's ?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #80  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2013, 9:21 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,789
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantais View Post
I've already heard about the Great Migration but I didn't think it was so important. I mean, it's a really huge growth in Black population between 1950 and 1980. Also, why was it apparently more important in Détroit than in other northeastern american cities ? And, on another scale, why Blacks moved predominantly to the inner city and not to some suburbs ? Why did it happen essentially after the WW2 and not earlier, because I guess it was already not that cool to be a Black in the South in the late 1800's or in the early 1900's ?
1980 was the first census after the Great Migration officially ended. Detroit's black population did not grow abnormally compared to other northeastern or Great Lakes cities. There were two distinct parts of the migration: pre-war and post-war. Both parts were spurred by the need for low skilled industrial labor in the north. The 1970s brought the beginning of de-industrialization and thus the end of the need for large amounts of low skilled industrial workers in northern cities.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 3:36 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.