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  #681  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2018, 3:10 AM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Yes, the loan is to refinance the existing debt. There is no separate loan due in October.

Do you think a bankrupt team is more appealing to a potential buyer?

Some very knowledgeable people on another forum, one with insiders commenting have been quite forthcoming about the current situation of the ottawa senators. In it it is claimed that:

1. In the spring Melnyk took demand loan from a group that is interested in purchasing the ottawa senators after exhausting other options.
2. there was an offer for the team in June.
3. Yes, there was re-financing in June and the financing was to pay existing debt including #1 above.
4. This payment for 1 above was and is due in October.-not a separate payment, the original one.
5. Over the course of the last 2 months another buyer has negotiating to purchase some equity in the senators; possibly in order to avoid using cashflow on #1.
6. Should melnyk not make the payment on #1, it may mean that he loses some equity in the team to the holder of said debt, not bankruptcy. One would have to see the loan terms and conditions but again, it is rumoured that the holder of debt is interested in buying the team.

There never needs to be a bankrupt company at this juncture-its valuated at 420 million and there are at least 2 interested parties in buying the team.

I never wish ill will on anyone, and I don't want to argue with you. YOur comments about Karlsson came off a bit harsh. What will happen to the senators will happen. No amount of speculation on my part will alter the outcome, but the status quo is likely not sustainable so change is coming sooner or later.
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  #682  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2018, 3:00 PM
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I don't think he wanted to stay under Melnyk, but I do think he did, in general, want to stay in Ottawa.

Yes he turned down the contract offer, but, and this was discussed on the radio this morning, the contract offer was very vanilla and was more of a token offer than a serious one, it was devoid of all bonuses and clauses, it was not an offer made in good faith. It was an offer that EK had no choice but to reject(lest he signs a terrible contract for himself).

Dorion already confirmed yesterday that the decision to trade EK was made in February.

Honestly, at this point I would rather have EK for the season and then lose him for nothing as a UFA than the garbage return we got for him.
It's very similar to what happened with Alfredson. After taking a home town discount for years, he wanted to be paid what he was worth in his twilight years. The Sens refused and he left. Melnyk made the same mistake as he had 5 years ago, only this time it could kill whatever little support he had from the fanbase.

He's either trying to extinguish the flame in order to throw his hands in the air and say "we don't have enough fan support, let's cancel LeBreton and move the team". Or he, might be sabotaging the team before selling (he'll lose money on it, but his stubbornness rules his judgement). Or, OR, they sent Karlsson to San Jose as a rental just to get pieces that may help with the rebuild, with plans to re-sign him next summer. If that's the case Karlsson would have to be in on it.
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  #683  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2018, 3:14 PM
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It's very similar to what happened with Alfredson. After taking a home town discount for years, he wanted to be paid what he was worth in his twilight years. The Sens refused and he left. Melnyk made the same mistake as he had 5 years ago, only this time it could kill whatever little support he had from the fanbase.

He's either trying to extinguish the flame in order to throw his hands in the air and say "we don't have enough fan support, let's cancel LeBreton and move the team". Or he, might be sabotaging the team before selling (he'll lose money on it, but his stubbornness rules his judgement). Or, OR, they sent Karlsson to San Jose as a rental just to get pieces that may help with the rebuild, with plans to re-sign him next summer. If that's the case Karlsson would have to be in on it.
Or Karlsson didn't want to stay, which is why he turned down the 80M contract offer, which is a perfectly normal response for a player in the prime of his career playing on a team with lots of problems. Outside of Ottawa nothing about this is surprising.

I think the Alfredsson decision was exactly the right one. He was declining at that point, and wasting a bunch of cap space and salary dollars purely for nostalgia made little sense.

I think many senators fans are too driven by personality cults.
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  #684  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2018, 7:01 PM
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Karlsson absolutely wanted to stay but he wanted not only a base salary commensurate with his status, but also the up front bonuses and lockout protection that his peers are getting.

Every sports team in the world hopes its fans are driven by personality cults. Passion and idolism sell. Indifference doesn't.
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  #685  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2018, 9:36 PM
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Or Karlsson didn't want to stay, which is why he turned down the 80M contract offer, which is a perfectly normal response for a player in the prime of his career playing on a team with lots of problems. Outside of Ottawa nothing about this is surprising.

I think the Alfredsson decision was exactly the right one. He was declining at that point, and wasting a bunch of cap space and salary dollars purely for nostalgia made little sense.

I think many senators fans are too driven by personality cults.
Are you purposely ignoring my post to keep peddling that ridiculous notion? That offer was not made in good faith, that tidbit came straight from the horse's mouth a couple days ago when Dorion let out that he and Melnyk decided to trade Karlsson in February, that's a good four months before July 1. The July 1 offer was an offer designed for EK to reject so that Dorion can "keep" his word and the team can tell the fans "told you so".

Also, the Alfie debacle was bush-league and it was not only the wrong decision, but also a disastrous one. It's no surprise that attendance slowly started declining from that season on. Alfredsson should have finished his career here and the fact that he didn't is probably the 2nd biggest blunder Melnyk has made regarding this team(first being trading EK for a bag of pucks).
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  #686  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2018, 10:10 PM
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Are you purposely ignoring my post to keep peddling that ridiculous notion? That offer was not made in good faith, that tidbit came straight from the horse's mouth a couple days ago when Dorion let out that he and Melnyk decided to trade Karlsson in February, that's a good four months before July 1. The July 1 offer was an offer designed for EK to reject so that Dorion can "keep" his word and the team can tell the fans "told you so".

Also, the Alfie debacle was bush-league and it was not only the wrong decision, but also a disastrous one. It's no surprise that attendance slowly started declining from that season on. Alfredsson should have finished his career here and the fact that he didn't is probably the 2nd biggest blunder Melnyk has made regarding this team(first being trading EK for a bag of pucks).
No, I ignored your post because it was irrelevant. Even if it was true (and it probably is) no team owner (or owner of any business) is going to sell their team to sign a player.

Who the **** cares if he finished his career in Ottawa. This is pro sports, not the rotary club. I would be a lot better if fans cared more about the future than dwelling in the past.
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  #687  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2018, 1:34 AM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
No, I ignored your post because it was irrelevant. Even if it was true (and it probably is) no team owner (or owner of any business) is going to sell their team to sign a player.

Who the **** cares if he finished his career in Ottawa. This is pro sports, not the rotary club. I would be a lot better if fans cared more about the future than dwelling in the past.
How Alfredsson was treated, is one of the reasons why EK walked.

I am sorry but I wanted Alfredsson to retire as a Sen. This left a sour taste in my mouth.

It has to be more than cold business decisions. If you want the fans to feel part of the team (which is crucial to get bums in the seats) then you don't let the two most beloved players in team history to walk.
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  #688  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2018, 1:57 AM
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Who the **** cares if he finished his career in Ottawa.
Lots of people do.

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I would be a lot better if fans cared more about the future than dwelling in the past.
It is precisely because fans care about the future that they are and have been lashing out. There is no future with this scumbag sociopath and his muppet running the team.
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  #689  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2018, 4:09 AM
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Senators fans vent and point fingers at owner Eugene Melnyk over Erik Karlsson trade
In 1988, Oilers owner Peter Pocklington dealt the sport's marquee player, Wayne Gretzky, centre Mike Krushelnyski and defenceman Marty McSorley to the Los Angeles Kings.

Bruce Deachman, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: September 15, 2018


Now we know how Edmonton fans felt 30 years ago.

In 1988, Oilers owner Peter Pocklington dealt the sport’s marquee player, Wayne Gretzky, centre Mike Krushelnyski and defenceman Marty McSorley to the Los Angeles Kings, for centre Jimmy Carson, first-round draft pick Martin Gélinas, three additional first-round picks, and $15 million — the equivalent of about $28 million today.

It became known as The Trade, and it left Oilers fans devastated and in tears.

A similar veil of tears, anger and frustration fell on Ottawa after Senators fans learned Thursday that franchise player and captain Erik Karlsson had been dealt, along with minor-league forward Francis Perron, to the San Jose Sharks for centre Chris Tierney, defenceman Dylan DeMelo, prospects Josh Norris and Rudolfs Balcers, first- and second-round picks, plus an additional draft pick that’s a conditional first- or second-round selection in 2021. Oh, and zero dollars.

Reaction on social media and elsewhere has been loud and, by and large, angry, as fans have taken to chat rooms and Twitter to vent. Late Friday morning, Karlsson tweeted, “Thank you Ottawa for making this my home. All my love to the fans, community and former teammates. You will be dearly missed. On to the next chapter now. Shark nation, I’m coming for you.” That message prompted such responses as, “When you win the cup, please come and whack (Sens owner Eugene) Melnyk over the head with it,””Love you EK ❤️ thank you so much for everything you’ve done for the team and the city. We didn’t want this 😣,” and “We all wish you the best and hope that, when you win the cup, you will drive up and down Melnyk’s street with it all day long.”

Some, like Shaila Anwar, took action. Within about five minutes of the trade announcement, the public servant and co-host of TSN1200’s That’s What She Said, whose Twitter handle is “I am from Erik Karlsson’s Forever Home,” called the club to cancel season tickets she has had since 1994.

“Marketing a sports team is all about selling hope or selling championships,” Anwar said Friday. “Those are the two things that get people to care.

“But what are the Senators going to sell now? They can’t sell hope, and, as much as they may say this was a hockey trade, they got nothing to replace front-line talent, a two-time Norris trophy-winner who carried the franchise, and the city and his hockey team, on his broken leg and almost got them in the Stanley Cup finals — a team that nobody would have picked to get that far.”

Anwar likened Thursday’s trade to an onion: “Every layer of this trade, you peel it off and it still kind of stinks and it kind of makes you want to cry.

“It’s philosophically bad, it’s objectively bad, it’s demonstrably bad, it’s bad on multi-levels. It’s bad on the ice, it’s bad off the ice, and it’s bad for the long-term effects of the Ottawa Senators. I have serious concerns about how they’re going to come back from this.”

On Friday at work, Anwar wore a Senators shirt with a big X through the logo, over which she wrote “The Ottawa Senators are dead to me.” People, she said, were coming to her or sending condolence texts and emails, “like a death has occurred in the family because they know how seriously I take it.”

Like many Twitter inhabitants, Anwar pointed her finger at the short-armed, deep-pocketed Melnyk. “He can say all he wants that he saved the team, but my take on it is this: He bought the team 15 years ago and it’s been a slow, progressive death.

“Not everybody drops dead of a heart attack. Some take a long time, and (Melnyk) is killing the Ottawa Senators franchise. This is a franchise that can’t afford to lose the fan base that they have, and I don’t know how they recover from this. Nobody’s going to buy tickets today because Eugene Melnyk saved the team 15 years ago.”

Another one-time die-hard fan, Scott Wells, agreed. He compared Melnyk to former Montreal Expos owner Jeffrey Loria, who presided over that club’s demise in the early 2000s.

“They slowly traded their best players, didn’t get enough in return, the club went downhill and (Loria) kept making promises and never did anything and basically ran it into the ground.

“I don’t think Melnyk wants to move the team. He just doesn’t want to put money into it, at least until he sees what happens with LeBreton, but he’s not going to change his modus operandi.”

Dealing Karlsson, Wells added, would send a message to other veteran Senators players that the team wouldn’t be competitive. “It’ll come down to (Mark) Stone and (Matt) Duchene, and Duchene left Colorado because he didn’t want to deal anymore with a brutal rebuild.

“With Karlsson leaving, you’d hope there be enough of a return to kickstart things here, but there’s nothing here to kickstart or improve the team.”

It speaks volumes, Wells added, that the online reaction to the trade from fans of the Toronto Maple Leafs and Montreal Canadiens was sympathetic. “Instead of riding us, they’re saying they feel sorry for us, it’s got so bad.”

Like Anwar, Wells says he’s disinclined to continue to buy tickets to the handful of Senators games he typically attends each season. “I’m happy to watch the Senators on TV with some friends.

“There are going to be some really, really long nights.”

That said, in 1990, two years after the Gretzky trade, the Oilers, led by Mark Messier, won the Stanley Cup. Senators fans may be wondering if Messier can still skate and if he’d be willing to move here.

bdeachman@postmedia.com

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...karlsson-trade
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  #690  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2018, 1:30 PM
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How Alfredsson was treated, is one of the reasons why EK walked.

I am sorry but I wanted Alfredsson to retire as a Sen. This left a sour taste in my mouth.

It has to be more than cold business decisions. If you want the fans to feel part of the team (which is crucial to get bums in the seats) then you don't let the two most beloved players in team history to walk.
Good teams make cold business decisions. Most players are realistic about expecting less money in their decling years, just like they expected more money in their prime years. Recent example: Joe Thornton just resigned with San Jose for $3M less than he made the previous year. They couldn't have acquired Karlsson if they gave Thornton a nostalgia contract.

Nostalgia has cost this team a lot. They keep front office staff way too long, they keep ageing fan favourites too long.

What the team desperately needs is is a President that knows hockey and can make hard decisions to make the team better over the longer term.
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  #691  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2018, 1:51 PM
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Players' salary expectations are tied to their production as compared with their peers. The concept of age affects the duration of a contract. A 38 year player capable of scoring 30 goals will still cash in, but for 1-2 years max.

I agree that we need a legitimate President of hockey ops but that's the tip of the iceberg of what we need. Any hire is useless unless it corresponds with new ownership (and for that matter a legitimate GM).

Case in point, they hired a new marketing exec and then proceeded to release that pathetic video with Boro "interviewing" the owner. It shows that's she's nothing more than a puppet with no meaningful power (it couldn't have been her idea or else she's simply horrible at her job).
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  #692  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2018, 2:22 PM
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Yeah, Melnyk is a bad owner, I get it. The NHL does not oust bad owners, they let the team in their richest market have bad ownership for 40 years, do you think they GAF about Ottawa? There are lots of companies I wish had different ownership - it ain't gunna happen, whether or not some jackass rents a billboard.

Best scenario is to give a competent President the reins and go back to the Bahamas. Every time he shows up in Ottawa fans get angry. The new President needs to pretty much fire everyone and explain a coherent rebuild strategy to fans (the way Shanny did in Toronto).

Too bad Yzerman isn't looking for a home town discount.

Last edited by acottawa; Sep 16, 2018 at 5:38 PM. Reason: Typo
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  #693  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2018, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
No, I ignored your post because it was irrelevant. Even if it was true (and it probably is) no team owner (or owner of any business) is going to sell their team to sign a player.

Who the **** cares if he finished his career in Ottawa. This is pro sports, not the rotary club. I would be a lot better if fans cared more about the future than dwelling in the past.
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Good teams make cold business decisions. Most players are realistic about expecting less money in their decling years, just like they expected more money in their prime years. Recent example: Joe Thornton just resigned with San Jose for $3M less than he made the previous year. They couldn't have acquired Karlsson if they gave Thornton a nostalgia contract.

Nostalgia has cost this team a lot. They keep front office staff way too long, they keep ageing fan favourites too long.

What the team desperately needs is is a President that knows hockey and can make hard decisions to make the team better over the longer term.
In Alfredsson last season in Ottawa, 2012-2013, he was the third most productive player on the team with 26 points in 47 games (close to half the season was canceled due to a lock-out). Gonchar had 27 points in 45 games while Turris had 29 points in 48 games. That's not a guy on the decline, that's a team leader.

And again, the fact that he took a home town discount for most of his playing career (paid only 1 million that season), and the fact that he was the face of the franchise, a great community activist, the greatest player in Sens history and only a few years from retirement, management should have offered him whatever he wanted.

Suppose Melnyk made the right call on both the Alfie and Karlsson fronts, in terms of building a good team and hockey operations, that still doesn't excuse his decision. While this could fly in Toronto or Montreal (see PK Subban) where the Leafs and Canadiens' brands are too big to fail, this is a terrible decision in Ottawa. We are a small market that depends heavily on the individual (as opposed to big corporations) to fill seats. You need to do whatever in takes to keep those franchise players and maintain that sense of pride and ownership for the fans.

Letting those two captains go has done nothing but alienate the fan base and further hurt the bottom line. They probably stand to lose more money than it would cost to keep them. And that's what it's about. The business needs to make money, and that happens by keeping the franchise players. Just have to keep one guy. You have 21+ other pieces to play with.
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  #694  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2018, 11:20 PM
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He was only paid a million the previous year because the contract was front loaded (as almost all contracts for older players are). He was asking for 7 million, which is way more that a 0.5 point per game player in his late 30s was worth. The fact he got considerably less in Detroit is indicative of where his market value was.

I get the sense that a lot of people in this city are uncomfortable with the concept of professional sports as normal business practices upset people's bureaucratic mentality.
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  #695  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 12:40 AM
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We don't know what the Sens offered Alfredsson. It was likely less than Detroit and Boston. That's why he left.

But again, for a business to succeed, you need the support of your customers. This has gone down since Alfie left and chances are this year might be worse than ever after dealing Karlsson. If the market wants a player, you need to build around that player, otherwise, you'll lose that support and revenues will go down.

Quick side note, why were the Sens were willing to give Ryan close to what Alfie wanted? He's never been much more productive than Alfie was and has never brought the same value in terms of fan attraction. Alfie would have been a better investment than Ryan.

The name of the game is asses in seats.
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  #696  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 1:23 AM
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My understanding from the press at the time is Bryan Murray made an initial offer assuming there would be some back and forth and Alfredsen didn't want to do that.

In my view there is no defence of the Ryan trade. He is has never been better than Silverberg, plus they gave up the pick that became Richie, and the extension they gave Ryan was way too high.
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  #697  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 4:32 AM
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The name of the game is asses in seats.
Yup.

That’s why it’s worth paying fan favourites more than they are worth. Because an Erik K has spent a lot of time in the community being an ambassador and we like him. We want to see him play. Not just a group of anonymous players wearing Sens uniforms.

They put bums in seats. Which means you can afford to build the team for the future.
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  #698  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2018, 3:41 PM
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Interesting take on things. Sounds plausible.

Sens moves could align with sale preparations, sports economist says

Ottawa Matters,
Jason White
September 19


A report surfaced this past summer that Eugene Melnyk received an offer for the Senators, but the NHL quickly denied that he was looking to sell.

Recent moves made by the Ottawa Senators -- labelled a rebuilding by the team's management and ownership -- are similar to moves made by other teams leading up to their sale, says a Canadian sports economist.

"I'm saying that this might not be a rebuild," said Moshe Lander, an economics lecturer at Concordia University. "This might just be fundamentally that he (Eugene Melnyk) is looking to prepare the team to maximize its value."

Lander adds, many teams jettison high-ranking talent before a sale, to shed those players' top-dollar, long-term contracts -- even though many might assume losing high-ranking talent like Erik Karlsson would make a team less attractive to a potential buyer.

"By being able to kind of ship off talent and have a bunch of short-term, expiring contracts, that actually makes it more attractive to a potential buyer," Lander told The Rick Gibbons Show on 1310 NEWS. "Because it allows them, from the beginning, to put their fingerprint on the team."

Lander adds, a new stadium at LeBreton Flats would also add to the team's value.

A report surfaced this past summer that Melnyk received an offer for the team, but the NHL quickly denied that he was looking to sell.

If Melnyk were to sell the team, it would be a dream come true for some fans who are fed up with the current ownership and continue to urge a sale -- or at least for Melnyk to take a much less hands-on role with the team.

Frustrated fans are getting a new way to voice their displeasure -- with #MelnykOut ballcaps being sold by a Barrhaven retailer. The store has also begun giving away window decals.

Frustrated fans are getting a new way to voice their displeasure -- with #MelnykOut ballcaps being sold by a Barrhaven retailer. The store has also begun giving away window decals.

https://www.ottawamatters.com/local-...t-says-1052955
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  #699  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2018, 4:25 PM
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Anyone who would prefer to buy/own the Senators without Erik Karlsson sounds like someone I would prefer didn't own the Ottawa Senators. But I'm in the vocal minority.
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  #700  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2018, 4:49 PM
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Anyone who would prefer to buy/own the Senators without Erik Karlsson sounds like someone I would prefer didn't own the Ottawa Senators. But I'm in the vocal minority.
Agreed. Wouldn't a new owner want to build their team around a proven superstar?
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