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  #181  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2008, 5:27 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Originally Posted by 240glt View Post
I'm still in awe about how fast it got so busy. I drove it a couple days after it opened and it was fine, now it's just a gong show.
mmm induced demand. Only going to get worse with the Whitemud construction!
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  #182  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2008, 8:08 PM
Nudrock Nudrock is offline
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Just wondering, have other rush-hour routes lightened much since AH opened?

And there must be many commuters that have a time benefit from using it, despite the traffic congestion, otherwise there wouldn't be that many people using it - No?
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  #183  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2008, 12:58 AM
Corndogger Corndogger is offline
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mmm induced demand. Only going to get worse with the Whitemud construction!
Kyle, don't buy into that induced demand nonsense. People flock to new roads because they minimize their travel time. While the new road gets increased volume others will see a decrease in their volume. People are not going to make extra trips just because of a new road. They might do a few at first just to see what the roads like but after that life goes on. There's only so minutes in a day and most people lead busy lifes. Too busy to make an extra trip and it's highly unlikely they will do so just because of a new road. They might go to a different store, etc. because of the new road but that will just replace a different trip. The only way there will be an overall increase in traffic volume is if more people move to the area and/or buy more cars. This is good because it means our economy is performing well. At least the Province understands basic economics. Too bad the City of Calgary is heading toward economic disaster with their proposed policies. If Dion doesn't destroy us Druh Farrell will.
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  #184  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2008, 1:23 AM
leendert leendert is offline
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Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
Kyle, don't buy into that induced demand nonsense. People flock to new roads because they minimize their travel time. While the new road gets increased volume others will see a decrease in their volume. People are not going to make extra trips just because of a new road. They might do a few at first just to see what the roads like but after that life goes on. There's only so minutes in a day and most people lead busy lifes. Too busy to make an extra trip and it's highly unlikely they will do so just because of a new road. They might go to a different store, etc. because of the new road but that will just replace a different trip. The only way there will be an overall increase in traffic volume is if more people move to the area and/or buy more cars. This is good because it means our economy is performing well. At least the Province understands basic economics. Too bad the City of Calgary is heading toward economic disaster with their proposed policies. If Dion doesn't destroy us Druh Farrell will.
Thank you for the armchair anecdotal analysis, but is it really impossible to imagine induced demand being true? If the cost, using measures such as convenience, price, time, etc., of a certain activity is lowered, then a normal response would be for that activity to be partaken in more frequently.

A more academic discussion of induced demand is available: http://www.cts.cv.imperial.ac.uk/doc...iccts00003.pdf

Regardless whether induced demand is true or not, not building the additional ring road was not option, given that the demand that arose from population growth in the areas served by these roads provided enough justification.
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  #185  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2008, 2:25 AM
Corndogger Corndogger is offline
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Thank you for the armchair anecdotal analysis, but is it really impossible to imagine induced demand being true? If the cost, using measures such as convenience, price, time, etc., of a certain activity is lowered, then a normal response would be for that activity to be partaken in more frequently.

A more academic discussion of induced demand is available: http://www.cts.cv.imperial.ac.uk/doc...iccts00003.pdf

Regardless whether induced demand is true or not, not building the additional ring road was not option, given that the demand that arose from population growth in the areas served by these roads provided enough justification.
I've read the academic, social engineering inspired literature. If you read deeper into what these guys have written they even agree with me. Someone (I wish I could find the study) did an analysis of this using a whack of US transportation data and discovered there is no (0.01) correlation between new roads and increased traffic if you control for other factors. That's simple common sense. New roads do not cause vehicles to pop out of thin air and there's no real evidence they account for increased trips/person either. If there is I'd love to see some scientific-based evidence that isn't written by someone with an agenda.
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  #186  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2008, 6:19 PM
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^I disagree somewhat. When AHD opened i know people who used to bus because of whitemud traffic now drive.
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  #187  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2008, 7:00 PM
Corndogger Corndogger is offline
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^I disagree somewhat. When AHD opened i know people who used to bus because of whitemud traffic now drive.
Is that necessarily bad? Now those people have gained their freedom back. The vast majority of people put a high value on being able to control their own actions and deciding when to travel, how, etc. are near the top of the list. This is why people in China and India are buying cars at a rapid rate (1 million/month in each country). Which is another reason why Dion is a complete idiot for even talking about us reducing our carbon output.
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  #188  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2008, 7:19 PM
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^are you on crack? As much as i dont like taxes, a carbon tax like the one in BC would be a very good thing for Alberta IMO.

IF and a big IF...the tax money was spent improving public transit, green techonologies and pushing LRT.

I would fully support a 2.5cents tax if Edmonton then had the funds for 2 new LRT lines (NLRT/WLRT)
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  #189  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2008, 7:51 PM
MrOilers MrOilers is offline
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Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
Is that necessarily bad? Now those people have gained their freedom back. The vast majority of people put a high value on being able to control their own actions and deciding when to travel, how, etc. are near the top of the list. This is why people in China and India are buying cars at a rapid rate (1 million/month in each country). Which is another reason why Dion is a complete idiot for even talking about us reducing our carbon output.
Freedom to me is having the option of driving, or taking public transit that is actually faster than taking my own vehicle, and where I don't need to worry about parking, gas, etc.

Personally, I think anything that encourages people to drive more gets them away from thinking about public transit, and unintentionally makes people dependent on their cars. It would be bad if ETS reduces bus services because people stop riding them (which further discourages people from using them, etc.)
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  #190  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2008, 8:20 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
Is that necessarily bad? Now those people have gained their freedom back. The vast majority of people put a high value on being able to control their own actions and deciding when to travel, how, etc. are near the top of the list. This is why people in China and India are buying cars at a rapid rate (1 million/month in each country). Which is another reason why Dion is a complete idiot for even talking about us reducing our carbon output.
Your going to get a big tax cut unless you consume carbon at an above average rate. The impact on conventional oil and gas will be less than Stelmach's 'Conservative' royalty review, while for Suncor it works out to about $3 a barrel (from pit to pipeline). BC's carbon tax starts of July 1st and there is a flurry of exploration activity going on there right now.

For gasoline, the carbon tax replaces the old federal excise tax. There will be the pass through cost of exploration and refining as there has always been, but I don't see people complaining that diesel is almost sulphur free now (another program that was denounced as going to ruin the economy, acid rain reduction)

All the proposed systems (conservative, Liberal, ndp) for controlling greenhouse gases would increase costs, the Liberal plan is the only one that returns that cost back into the economy as tax breaks.

Unless you don't believe we should take any action at all to combat the climate change crisis, well then I guess none of the federal political parties represents you then.

A carbon tax, is letting the market work. It lets everyone enjoy all the freedom of the road they want. You can heat and cool your house as much as you want. You can use electric space heaters if you really want, or leave your oven on all day. Thats your choice, and if those actions cause GHGs to be emitted you will pay a carbon tax on them.

As for induced demand, again this is another situation of market equilibrium. You increase supply, the 'price' goes down, both in fuel consumed from less traffic jams, and from amount of time used. You both create new trips, and change the mode of other trips. In this way, unless you overbuild to such a crazy capacity, or create a price signal for the consumption of the road, you will never get rid of congestion.

Economics applies to everything. You can't say you love choice then say markets can't be used to represent choice. You can use economics to predict what kind of socks business people will wear, and to predict road, rail, and air plane demand. It works for almost everything!

Sometimes markets take awhile to work. The gasoline price signal won't cause an immediate change to smaller vehicles because of existing capital stock, but on the next upgrade cycle the vehicle mix will shift. Just as the gasoline price signal will cause devaluing of houses with excessive commuting distances, that aren't served by transit.
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  #191  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2008, 8:20 PM
leendert leendert is offline
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Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
I've read the academic, social engineering inspired literature. If you read deeper into what these guys have written they even agree with me. Someone (I wish I could find the study) did an analysis of this using a whack of US transportation data and discovered there is no (0.01) correlation between new roads and increased traffic if you control for other factors. That's simple common sense. New roads do not cause vehicles to pop out of thin air and there's no real evidence they account for increased trips/person either. If there is I'd love to see some scientific-based evidence that isn't written by someone with an agenda.
When a proper scientific study is done, researchers do not start the study with preconceived notions on the truth of their hypotheses, as evidence should be what supports the hypothesis. I'm not suggesting all scientific studies are done properly, because the researchers are human and do make mistakes in experimental setup or their analysis or their hypothesis may be wrong.

However, a scientific study is still better than appealing to common sense because scientific studies can be discussed based on the merits of the evidence collected and the analysis performed. Appealing to common sense means justifying without evidence, and what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Common sense notions are not necessarily correct.

I repeat, however, independent of the significance or truth of induced traffic, a good argument can be made that the new ring roads are needed because population and employment growth at the city's perimeter.
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  #192  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2008, 8:23 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
^are you on crack? As much as i dont like taxes, a carbon tax like the one in BC would be a very good thing for Alberta IMO.

IF and a big IF...the tax money was spent improving public transit, green techonologies and pushing LRT.

I would fully support a 2.5cents tax if Edmonton then had the funds for 2 new LRT lines (NLRT/WLRT)
All the carbon tax money will be returned to canadians and corporations with tax cuts. The market signals will take care of the rest.

The BC carbon tax is being returned to tax payers in a similar manner.

Trust in the market.
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  #193  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2008, 8:37 PM
Corndogger Corndogger is offline
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Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
^are you on crack? As much as i dont like taxes, a carbon tax like the one in BC would be a very good thing for Alberta IMO.

IF and a big IF...the tax money was spent improving public transit, green techonologies and pushing LRT.

I would fully support a 2.5cents tax if Edmonton then had the funds for 2 new LRT lines (NLRT/WLRT)
You're asking if I'm on crack after you make those comments? Why would you ever trust the federal government, especially the Liberals, to say they are going to actually spend the money on what they claim the tax is intended for? The gas tax we have now was supposed to be spent on building and maintaining highways. Not on transit! If more money is needed to expand transit they should increase transit fares which don't even cover 50% of operating costs let alone capital costs. Talk about an unsustainable form of transportation.
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  #194  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2008, 8:43 PM
Corndogger Corndogger is offline
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Originally Posted by kyle_olsen View Post
All the carbon tax money will be returned to canadians and corporations with tax cuts. The market signals will take care of the rest.

The BC carbon tax is being returned to tax payers in a similar manner.

Trust in the market.
Kyle, all I can say is that you are extremely naive. Either that or you think people are idiots and have no sense of history. Dion's plan is to rape and pillage AB and SK (BC to a lesser extent) and use the proceeds of his plundering to buy votes in the east. Thankfully the vast majority of voters have lived through that crap and will never let it happen again. If Dion ever gets elected you'll be seeing the west say goodbye to the sad excuse for a country where federal politicians rely on screwing lesser populated areas to get elected.
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  #195  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2008, 8:56 PM
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^i dont even know where to begin...
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  #196  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2008, 9:10 PM
Corndogger Corndogger is offline
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^i dont even know where to begin...
Don't tell me that you disagree with what I'm saying. If you do disagree then you are either young or do not closely follow politics. I wish what I said was over the top but I know most people would have used much stronger language. I would have too if it wasn't for the crazy no profanity rule of this forum.
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  #197  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2008, 9:23 PM
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^perhaps you "follow" politics a little too much.
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  #198  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2008, 9:45 PM
Corndogger Corndogger is offline
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^perhaps you "follow" politics a little too much.
I follow and understand politics something which is sadly lacking on the various forums in SSP. But I'm not surprised with your reply. People who have an agenda to push prefer to keep people in the dark. Unfortunately, there's enough people like me to prevent most of the stupidity proposed by the through the political mouthpieces.
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  #199  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2008, 10:29 PM
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ok then...
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  #200  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2008, 10:52 PM
oilsmack99 oilsmack99 is offline
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A vote for seperation within one year of Dion taking power would make me happy. Never again.

I hope Saskatchewan would follow, and if BC wanted to get together, I might agree to the tax if it all was put into renewables and transit in Western Canada.

Let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark. Dion first. It will be good in the long run for us, yeah, what the disgusting liberals always say. I would find a small tax cool, along with a carbon trading system just for the western provinces.

I should be honest, I hated the east when I had to live there for a few years, I didn't like the culture or the people and how shallow and pc they were. We don't need em, so why are we still here, do we get off on the abuse and the drama, and believe we deserve it like some battered woman?
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