From McMansion to McMain Street

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by memph

Two blocks of development surrounded by highways on 3 sides and a creek on the other side (with car dealerships and an industrial park across the creek). Yeah, I agree it feels pretty contrived.

The examples I posted are a better approach imo, since they're actually integrated into the surrounding neighbourhoods.

Don Mills in Toronto is a bit like that Milwaukee example but better integrated with the surroundings imo. The surrounding arterials are still much less highway-like and most of the arterials will eventually have condos along them. The overall residential component should be quite large too, not just a few hundred units, but several thousands. The public realm is already pretty well used, not sure how that compares to the suburban Milwaukee development.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7345...7i16384!8i8192

Don Mills looks a lot better, like it actually wants to be an urban place eventually instead of a Disney main street for suburbanites surrounded by sprawl. I've only been there once and I don't remember anyone using the outdoor amenities, but it was winter. Doesn't appear well-used in the streetview either...

The thing that really perplexes me about this suburban Milwaukee example is that Goddess and the Baker, a really good Chicago bakery/coffee shop, opened a store there. They have several locations in downtown Chicago and...there.

[10023]

Originally Posted by memph

So you think stuff like this is tacky?

Mt Pleasant, Brampton
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.67561...7i16384!8i8192

Fairport, Ajax
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.81512...7i16384!8i8192

North Oakville
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.47161...7i16384!8i8192

Sorry, but yes.

[MolsonExport]

I give you the Venetian (in frosty Edmonton, Alberta, no less)

highrise-edmonton

[MolsonExport]

worst of all are the mcstripmallfauxneighborhoodhybrids, like this wretched place in Missingsausage
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5087...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5107...!7i6100!8i3050
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5110...7i16384!8i8192

Beyond soul sucking. Worst of all worlds.

[mhays]

That Seattle example was built as affordable micro housing in 1990, and was converted to a hotel (with daily/monthly rates) in 2000 or so, after the tax abatement ran out iirc.

I don't have a huge qualm with fake varied facades. My bigger qualm is with the basic idea that buildings should appear smaller. I like big-looking buildings and urban mass. If a large site is available I'm good with that becoming a single building. It's important to activate edges, especially on key streets, but that's about doorways and windows, with varied things behind them. It's important that activity is evident above-grade (not parking) for multiple reasons, but that can be a single facade.

Small buildings are important too. As noted, much of that is facilitated by not needing parking, or not needing much. Parking can be tough if not impossible on a small site, particularly for a denser building in any quantity. So denser, more-urban cities and districts can fill small sites that car-oriented cities have a tough time with. (More accurately, they might have a market for some apartments etc. without parking in their cores, but few would try, and even fewer would allow it.)

[The North One]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Some more Toronto area ones:
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8930...7i16384!8i8192

Jesus this one looks like hell, like some dystopian twilight zone town that doesn't allow you to leave.

What on earth is this anyway? Some kind of planned community for hyper religious immigrants? That church is definitely new. Very bizarre.

[memph]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

worst of all are the mcstripmallfauxneighborhoodhybrids, like this wretched place in Missingsausage
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5087...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5107...!7i6100!8i3050
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5110...7i16384!8i8192

Beyond soul sucking. Worst of all worlds.

Technically that's in Oakville. I've been to that particular place several times since it has the only movie theatre in the area (also went for the mini-golf once as a kid).

I get that it's kinda tacky but I'd still rather eat dinner at the patios one of the restaurants on that "pedestrian mall" than in the adjacent restaurants in the surrounding sea of parking:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.50897...7i16384!8i8192
Fortunately there are options for dining in more traditional downtown type areas (Port Credit, Oakville, Kerr Village, Streetsville) in the area.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Some more Toronto area ones:
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7588...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4749...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8981...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8930...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.48139...7i16384!8i8192

All of these are terrible. I mean, they're better than big box power centres but the tacky, contrived architecture is just putrid. It's a cartoonish take on traditional architectural styles without an actual knowledge of the details, context, workmanship, or materiality of them.

Originally Posted by The North One

Jesus this one looks like hell, like some dystopian twilight zone town that doesn't allow you to leave.

What on earth is this anyway? Some kind of planned community for hyper religious immigrants? That church is definitely new. Very bizarre.

The cathedral was built in the 80s. The surrounding farmland was sold to a developer more recently, who then marketed the new subdivision as a sort of faux-European village.

Not sure what exactly the demographics of residents are like, but I would imagine they're not much different from that of neighbouring subdivisions (ie. mostly Chinese & Middle-Eastern immigrants).

[memph]

Originally Posted by The North One

Jesus this one looks like hell, like some dystopian twilight zone town that doesn't allow you to leave.

What on earth is this anyway? Some kind of planned community for hyper religious immigrants? That church is definitely new. Very bizarre.

Not exactly but kind of.

It's the Cathedral of the Configuration, which is some sort of Slovak Byzantine rite Catholic Church. One of their adherents, Stephen B. Roman immigrated to Canada in 1937 and became an uranium mining magnate in the 1950s. He lived in Markham and donated some land to build the church and helped fund its construction which began in 1984 and finished around 1990, a couple years after his death.

However, most of the church's Toronto area adherents (which were only a couple thousand strong in the first place) lived elsewhere in Toronto proper and the Western suburbs rather than Markham, so it was not a very convenient location for them. Roman's daughter then decided to turn the remaining lands into a European style "Cathedral town" and hired the guy in charge for the historic preservation of Westminster Abbey to do it.

This is what the area surrounding the Cathedral was supposed to be developed into.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald..._of_Piazza.jpg

Although the church has been praised for its mosaic, acoustics and other features, so far this particular neighbourhood is about 75% Chinese, so their attempts to create some sort of Eastern Catholic religious community are rather unsuccessful. The church organization itself moved its seat from this cathedral to a church in Old Toronto in 2006, and so the cathedral has been vacant until 2016. Since 2016, it's been used for Sunday service by a different Greek Catholic church, but otherwise is still largely unused.

It seems like the occupancy rates for the retail units on the Main Street are still pretty good though (compared to Bur Oak Dr in the Cornell neighbourhood). I agree that the homogeneous design is rather stark... I can only hope that the business owners customize their storefronts and the street trees mature to break that homogeneity...

[memph]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

All of these are terrible. I mean, they're better than big box power centres but the tacky, contrived architecture is just putrid. It's a cartoonish take on traditional architectural styles without an actual knowledge of the details, context, workmanship, or materiality of them.






The cathedral was built in the 80s. The surrounding farmland was sold to a developer more recently, who then marketed the new subdivision as a sort of faux-European village.

Not sure what exactly the demographics of residents are like, but I would imagine they're not much different from that of neighbouring subdivisions (ie. mostly Chinese & Middle-Eastern immigrants).

Even the example from Preserve Dr in Oakville? It has a pretty typical minimalist modern design imo.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by memph

Not exactly but kind of.

It's the Cathedral of the Configuration, which is some sort of Slovak Byzantine rite Catholic Church. One of their adherents, Stephen B. Roman immigrated to Canada in 1937 and became an uranium mining magnate in the 1950s. He lived in Markham and donated some land to build the church and helped fund its construction which began in 1984 and finished around 1990, a couple years after his death.

However, most of the church's Toronto area adherents lived elsewhere with relatively few living in Markham, so it was not a very convenient location for them. Roman's daughter then decided to turn the remaining lands into a European style "Cathedral town" and hired the guy in charge for the historic preservation of Westminster Abbey to do it.

This is what the area surrounding the Cathedral was supposed to be developed into.


Although the church has been praised for its mosaic, acoustics and other features, so far this particular neighbourhood is about 75% Chinese, so their attempts to create some sort of Eastern Catholic religious community are rather unsuccessful. The church organization itself moved its seat from this cathedral to a church in Old Toronto in 2006, and so the cathedral has been vacant until 2016. Since 2016, it's been used for Sunday service by a different Greek Catholic church, but otherwise is still largely unused.

It seems like the occupancy rates for the retail units on the Main Street are still pretty good though (compared to Bur Oak Dr in the Cornell neighbourhood). I agree that the homogeneous design is rather stark... I can only hope that the business owners customize their storefronts and the street trees mature to break that homogeneity...

It's even weirder than I thought, thanks for the explanation.

[badrunner]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Some more Toronto area ones:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8930...7i16384!8i8192

Only a godless people can build such an abomination. I weep for their eternal souls.

[ssiguy]

For me it's not the design I dislike as much as the colour of the bricks and facade. If it was a classic rich deep red brick at least it wouldn't look so damn anemic.

[biguc]

The dominance of professional services in the retail spaces speaks to its success as a Mcmain street. Nothing says vibrant street life like accountants and dentists.

Visually, at least, it's not that different from parts of North Amsterdam, even down to the overly wide street.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3892...7i13312!8i6656

But in the Amsterdam case, the middle of the street is actually public space that hosts a market sometimes, not road. And the buildings look better. And there are actual shops and cafes, including that problematic number I landed streetview next to.

[JManc]

I've seen some doozies here in suburban Houston but those ones in Canada are pretty bad.

[Innsertnamehere]

Yea, they are pretty bad. There are some more OK ones out there too though. I actually don't mind the Oak Park one.

These types of "main streets" are becoming standard fare in Toronto's suburbs - a lot more of them are in gestation right now. Many more being slowly built out with higher densities too with actual apartment blocks.

Generally these are built because the municipality requires a commercial main street, and developers don't want to build it properly. Most of the examples I showed are basically townhouses with a crappy commercial unit at grade to technically meet the requirements in the zoning. Some developers are starting to actually put a bit more effort into it lately, going for higher densities with some higher quality retail spaces.

This one still needs the street to be urbanized but the building isn't *terrible*

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8813...7i16384!8i8192

This building on Oak Park is pretty good:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4830...7i16384!8i8192

Some denser suburban stuff with a huge commercial component in Markham:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8493...7i16384!8i8192

a couple blocks north:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8566...7i16384!8i8192

This one is pretty nice, though the tenants suck:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8124...7i16384!8i8192

An interesting neighbourhood in Waterloo full of student housing with surprisingly vibrant retail at grade deep in on residential streets is forming. Public realm and architecture is generally terrible, but it is usually quite busy with pedestrians and the businesses do fairly well, at least when school is in.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4750...7i16384!8i8192

This one has an interesting (and terrible) storey behind it. Municipal staff got the developer to build parallel parking in front of the commercial spaces - however regional (county) staff stuck bollards down blocking the spaces since it's a regional road and it was "impacting traffic".

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8537...7i16384!8i8192

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

All of these are terrible. I mean, they're better than big box power centres but the tacky, contrived architecture is just putrid. It's a cartoonish take on traditional architectural styles without an actual knowledge of the details, context, workmanship, or materiality of them.

This.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by biguc

The dominance of professional services in the retail spaces speaks to its success as a Mcmain street. Nothing says vibrant street life like accountants and dentists.

It's a shame too since there actually some genuinely vibrant, interesting retail nodes in the suburbs. Stuff like this: https://goo.gl/maps/cGUPUcRTc6Sb9YYp8

Now just imagine that but laid out in an urban main street format instead.

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Yea, they are pretty bad. There are some more OK ones out there too though. I actually don't mind the Oak Park one.

These types of "main streets" are becoming standard fare in Toronto's suburbs - a lot more of them are in gestation right now. Many more being slowly built out with higher densities too with actual apartment blocks.

Generally these are built because the municipality requires a commercial main street, and developers don't want to build it properly. Most of the examples I showed are basically townhouses with a crappy commercial unit at grade to technically meet the requirements in the zoning. Some developers are starting to actually put a bit more effort into it lately, going for higher densities with some higher quality retail spaces.

...

This building on Oak Park is pretty good:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4830...7i16384!8i8192

Some denser suburban stuff with a huge commercial component in Markham:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8493...7i16384!8i8192

a couple blocks north:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8566...7i16384!8i8192

...

See, these ones are pretty good. But that's because they're not what I'd call "McMain Streets" - they're legitimately dense, urban developments with retail that responds naturally to their context. McMain Streets are more about creating the illusion of a quaint main street environment without the fundamentals to support it (ie. density, organic growth) - essentially a quasi-urban theme park in the suburbs.

Those ones are in the suburbs but they're not suburban.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

It's a shame too since there actually some genuinely vibrant, interesting retail nodes in the suburbs. Stuff like this: https://goo.gl/maps/cGUPUcRTc6Sb9YYp8

Now just imagine that but laid out in an urban main street format instead.

That looks like a lot of fun; the other plazas nearby look pretty great too. It would obviously be better as a main street, but I don't even mind the plaza setup--if it wasn't so car oriented and isolated from everything around it.

I can't stop thinking of how to unfuck it. I guess you can only do so much when everything is a giant block living its life a quarter mile at a time and simultaneously drowning in a sea of parking. It's weird that there's a kind of Mcmain street aesthetic going on in the newer residential area south west of there... And there's a kind of Dubai-esque (non)urbanity to the one-part-road, one-part-tower developments west on Highway 7. What a shame.

[Doady]

Planning in Markham and Oakville is based very heavily on New Urbanism. One of the main principles of New Urbanism is mimicking the look of historic neighourhoods, and I think that's what this thread is really about.

What is known as "smart growth" today is actually a combination of New Urbanism and transit-oriented development. Both New Urbanism and TOD each have their own flaws, and taking the best from each approach is what smart growth is all about. Better than adhering too much to one approach, and the faux-historic thing is probably a good example why.