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  #381  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2020, 2:31 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Italians took a bit longer to transition to the suburban periphery. They arrived later, tended to be in working class professions, and tended to resist ethnic change to a greater degree. And I may be caricaturing a bit, but Jews tended to value education more (so "changing" schools were more of a threat), and had a greater wish and means to avoid conflict.

Canarsie: The Jews and Italians of Brooklyn, is a good read describing the varying reactions to demographic/cultural change. Canarsie was a (secular) Jewish/Italian mix, but when demographic change hit, Jews mostly vacated the area by about 1980, while Italians remained the largest demographic group till the late 90's or so.

Bensonhurst had similar patterns, with (secular) Jews largely vacating by 1980, but Italians dominant until maybe 10-15 years ago. Bensonhurst is now growing more Jewish, but that's because of Orthodox overflow from Borough Park. Also, Bensonhurst overall changed more slowly because the immigrant replacement groups were Chinese and former Soviet, not (black) Carribean, as in Canarsie.
NYC had about 2 million Jews in the 1950s, but it had fallen to 1 million by 1980, a number that's more or less the same today. There's also (as you point out) a great change in the demographic composition of the Jewish population due to the fast-growing Orthodox component and immigration from the FSU, which offset what would have been an even bigger decline.

NYC had about 1 million people of Italian ancestry in 1980, more or less the same as in 1940. Post-war immigration from Italy obviously offset the suburbanization of Italian Americans in the postwar period. The white population was declining, but the Italian population numbers held up. The end of immigration from Italy and further suburbanization has greatly reduced the numbers; today about 600,000 New Yorkers are of Italian ancestry.

Last edited by Docere; Sep 4, 2020 at 6:14 PM.
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  #382  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2020, 7:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Italians took a bit longer to transition to the suburban periphery. They arrived later, tended to be in working class professions, and tended to resist ethnic change to a greater degree. And I may be caricaturing a bit, but Jews tended to value education more (so "changing" schools were more of a threat), and had a greater wish and means to avoid conflict
Not really. My great grandparents were very confined to Italian community but my grandfather who came here as an infant totally assimilated in suburbia and my the time my father came along we were Italian in name only. He even started the family tradition of mispronouncing our Sicilian last name.
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  #383  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2020, 7:45 PM
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It could also be location-specific. There's a fairly large population of Italian Americans in Detroit's Eastern suburbs, but it's a highly assimilated population with very limited connections to past cultural traditions. It would be really hard for a non-local to even notice the population. But in the NY area (and possibly other large concentrations in Philly and Boston) it's quite common to visit the "old neigborhood" on a regular basis, whether for groceries, worship, dining/hanging out.

For example, the Belmont neighborhood of the Bronx (Arthur Avenue area, as referenced in A Bronx Tale), hasn't had a significant Italian population for at least 30 years, yet still feels very Italian, because it's a regional attraction for Italian American families. Bensonhurst is maybe 20-25% Italian, tops, these days, but many of the commercial drags are still dominated by Italian salumerias, bakeries and social clubs. There are even Italian record stores, soccer stores and Sicilian focaccerias, in census tracts that now show Chinese pluralities or majorities. Those businesses now survive on traffic from the burbs.

And the Italian community recently completed a major cultural center in Bensonhurst, so while the community has (mostly) suburbanized, there will be a draw for a few more generations, at minimum.
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  #384  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2020, 9:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
It could also be location-specific. There's a fairly large population of Italian Americans in Detroit's Eastern suburbs, but it's a highly assimilated population with very limited connections to past cultural traditions. It would be really hard for a non-local to even notice the population. But in the NY area (and possibly other large concentrations in Philly and Boston) it's quite common to visit the "old neigborhood" on a regular basis, whether for groceries, worship, dining/hanging out.
There's some semblance of that in my hometown; the Italian restaurants, bakeries, grocery stores, churches and cultural centers are all still on the east side even though there are very few Italians left there and the area has turned into the hood. Most of the businesses are dying out though and the cemeteries are full a lot of names that end in vowels...
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  #385  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2020, 6:36 PM
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Long Island is 23% Italian and has more Italian Americans than NYC.
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  #386  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2020, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
There's some semblance of that in my hometown; the Italian restaurants, bakeries, grocery stores, churches and cultural centers are all still on the east side even though there are very few Italians left there and the area has turned into the hood. Most of the businesses are dying out though and the cemeteries are full a lot of names that end in vowels...
You see something similar in Canada's capital Ottawa where few Italians live in Little Italy anymore, and the population is increasingly Asian due to overflow from the city's Chinatown which is the next neighbourhood over.

But the city's Italian businesses and institutions are still massively concentrated in Little Italy. There are a few reasons for that, including that Ottawa isn't really that big so Italian-Canadians who live elsewhere can still easily get to Little Italy. Ottawa also doesn't have white flight and racial polarization to make Italians feel uneasy about going into their old neighbourhood.
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  #387  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2020, 3:47 PM
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All Northeast plus a couple random Ohio and one Michigan county.
The Ohio county is Youngstown.
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  #388  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2020, 11:26 PM
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The Ohio county is Youngstown.
Yeah, Youngstown is known for its Italian heritage.
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  #389  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2020, 1:55 AM
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You see something similar in Canada's capital Ottawa where few Italians live in Little Italy anymore, and the population is increasingly Asian due to overflow from the city's Chinatown which is the next neighbourhood over.
Why do Chinatowns and Little Italies tend to be close and have this trend of one overflowing into/replacing the other in many N American cities?
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  #390  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2020, 1:57 AM
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Toronto's Chinatown used to be a Jewish neighborhood.

Last edited by Docere; Sep 7, 2020 at 2:08 AM.
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  #391  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2020, 7:47 PM
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Originally Posted by themaguffin View Post
The Ohio county is Youngstown.
There was more than one Ohio county. I think I saw Lake County as well, which is suburban Cleveland.
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  #392  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2020, 8:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
Why do Chinatowns and Little Italies tend to be close and have this trend of one overflowing into/replacing the other in many N American cities?
Probably due to historical timing of mass immigration and racist housing policies.
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  #393  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2020, 3:43 AM
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Wow, that list of counties is pretty striking. All Northeast plus a couple random Ohio and one Michigan county.
lol no, the ohio counties aren't random. its suburban cleveland and youngstown, right where it would be expected.
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  #394  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2020, 5:27 AM
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mamma shoulda picked the brand that saved her more time!

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  #395  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2020, 6:25 PM
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lol no, the ohio counties aren't random. its suburban cleveland and youngstown, right where it would be expected.
I know that. I suppose I shouldn't have said random. I meant random more in that they are the outliers in a list of counties entirely in the Northeast states.

I recently saw a comedian I follow on Twitter (who I think is an Ohio native) say that the Youngstown area is a slice of New Jersey in Ohio

From my experience in that part of the state and the people I know from there, I think that's a pretty apt description! It's a pretty interesting area, historically and demographically.
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  #396  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2020, 6:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Italian American

Richmond NY 31%*
Putnam NY 29.1%*
Gloucester NJ 25.9%
Ocean NJ 25.9%*
Suffolk NY 25.5%*
Monmouth NJ 24.8%*
Lawrence PA 24.4%
Sussex NJ 23.5%*
Lackawanna PA 23.3%
Middlesex CT 22.9%
Hunterdon NJ 22.4%*
Morris NJ 22.3%*
Dutchess NY 21.9%*
New Haven CT 21.4%
Kent RI 21.1%
Litchfield CT 21%
Washington RI 21.1%
Warren NJ 20.9%
Bristol RI 20.8%
Pike PA 20.4%*
Nassau NY 20.1%*
Schenectady NY 19.5%
Herkimer NY 19.4%
Ulster NY 19.3%
Westmoreland PA 18.9%
Mahoning OH 18.5%
Saratoga NY 18.4%
Cape May NJ 18.3%
Beaver PA 18.1%
Niagara NY 18%
Washington PA 18%
Atlantic NJ 17.8%
Monroe NY 17.7%
Westchester NY 17.7%*
Bergen NJ 17.6%*
Berkshire MA 17.6%
Elk PA 17.6%
Iron MI 17.2%
Onondaga NY 17.2%
Luzerne PA 17.1%
Oneida NY 17.1%
Delaware PA 17%
Fairfield CT 16.9%*
Providence RI 16.9%
Tolland CT 16.8%
Columbia NY 16.5%
Greene NY 16.5%
Camden NJ 16.4%
Essex MA 16.4%
Plymouth MA 16.4%
Montgomery NY 16.3%
Albany NY 16.2%
Erie NY 16.2%
Allegheny PA 16.1%
Burlington NJ 16.1%
Fulton NY 16.1%
Lake OH 16.1%
Monroe PA 16.1%
Bucks PA 15.9%
Genesse NY 15.9%
Rensselear NY 15.9%
Orange NY 15.8%*
Montgomery PA 15.5%
Hartford CT 15.2%
Rockingham NH 15.2%
Chester PA 15%

* New York metro
I grew up in Beaver County, PA (which is in the top half of this list). I definitely noticed that most of the people I grew up around were italian. I was one of the only friends I had in my group of people that wasn't fully or at least partially italian. I am primarily Czech with some English & Irish. I think every core county of the Pittsburgh metro is represented on the list above. I can tell you I ate a lot of good food growing up and I am in fact biased towards tan-complexion italian girls including my first crush.
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  #397  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2020, 7:22 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
I know that. I suppose I shouldn't have said random. I meant random more in that they are the outliers in a list of counties entirely in the Northeast states.

I recently saw a comedian I follow on Twitter (who I think is an Ohio native) say that the Youngstown area is a slice of New Jersey in Ohio

From my experience in that part of the state and the people I know from there, I think that's a pretty apt description! It's a pretty interesting area, historically and demographically.
there is definitely a bit of that lol, although more tempered by the midwestern hammer.

youngstown area is pretty stagnant, unlike cleveland, where like everything else the italians have spread out a lot more.
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  #398  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2020, 2:33 AM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is online now
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If you told me 14 Pennsylvania counties were on the list and Philadelphia wasn't one of them, I wouldn't believe you. The only one that to me is a head scratchier is Elk, I thought it was all German loggers there. Then again, its so small, one big ole Catholic family moving there might make the difference.
I'm from Philadelphia. While South Philly is for sure the most authentic urban Italian enclave in the country, Philadelphia is a large diverse county with 1.6+MM people. At this point, it's about 35% black, 30% white, 20% Hispanic, and 15ish % Asian. So while Italians probably account for the largest subgroup of whites in the city, the % of the whole won't compare to other smaller, less diverse counties.

Of note, 3 of the 4 first ring suburban counties outside of Philly are on the list (Delaware, Montgomery, Chester). Bucks is the exception. On the Jersey side (of Philadelphia), Gloucester, Camden, Burlington, and Atlantic are there.

Within in the Philadelphia region, there's a well known trope that Washington Twp, NJ (in Gloucester County) is called South South Philadelphia. There's steady migration back and forth between South Philly and Gloucester County. Many couples leave for Gloucester County when their kids reach school age and return to South Philly as soon as the kids fly the coop.

There are entire new neighborhoods in South Philly where the streets are given explicitly Italian names. It's very very very weird to me. Like there is no effort to pretend that anyone other than an Italian family will live there.
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  #399  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2020, 11:27 AM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
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^ that sounds charming to me. its like the chinatowns that hold the line. and certain black neighborhoods as well. for example hough in cleveland, where somewhat affluent families worked with the city to rebuild suburban style homes on a few stretches over the clearcut ruins because they wanted to stay there.
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  #400  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2020, 8:25 PM
ckh ckh is offline
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Here is a metro list with 2010-2014 census information: http://www.usa.com/rank/us--italian-...lst=NY&yr=9000
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