Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[Atlas]

Edit: beat me to it

One thing downtown has been missing in recent decades is residents. People used to actually live downtown and it seems like the tide has finally been shifting back away from suburbia and auto-dependence lately. I would expect more ground floor retail once there is a larger consistent base of customers and, like the BSL article mentions, there will be upwards of 5000 new residents downtown in the next year or two. What was the total population downtown 10 years ago? 12k? That's going to be a huge increase and a boon to downtown business.

This Worthington Tower will be a welcome addition in that regard, and it does actually have ground floor retail. The podium is definitely underwhelming but if the facade looks as good as the renders it will be a nice addition. It's certainly nicer than Liberty Sky, imo.

[Ironweed]

Originally Posted by Orlando

Thanks Orlando for the mock up.

Is there legitimate historical background with the brick building where the Worthington residential tower is going to be built?

Old/New?

If so, I think it is less than impressive as an existing structure.

Although not perfect, the tower will be a great addition to that area.

[Comrade]

Salt Lake City has more people living downtown than at any time in its history. That's just an ineffective excuse. Sure, more people downtown will help but you're fooling yourself if the solution is to essentially strip downtown of what makes it attractive for people to not just live there - but travel there.

Beyond that, there's a significant lack of affordable housing in downtown, which means the market is likely to be saturated by a demographic that trends on the retirement side and unlikely to add to the foot traffic needed to engage in what you'd expect for a downtown community.

Take a look at The Regent. The cheapest condo I can find is a 1 bed, 1 bath (909 square feet) that goes for $464,000. That's ridiculous. Granted, there may be some young professionals who might be able to afford something like that but on the whole, I bet these condos are being gobbled up by those who've already retired and want to downsize and not have to deal with the homes out in suburban Salt Lake.

So, again, a large part of the foot traffic is going to come from people wanting to go downtown. Problem is, downtown is destroying what makes it unique to the suburbs or they're taking people off the main streets (as the City Creek Mall essentially did).

Those are the facts.

So, I'd rather have an emphasis on affordable housing, along with retaining the little retail nodes downtown has, than give it all up for yet another high-rise that will price out 90% of the state's population.

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by scottharding

I got a mailer this week about the post office relocating. They're taking public opinion on where they should move, but my big take-away was that the lease is about up.

US Bank Tower parking garage retail, 200 south, just east of (next to) UPS. Or Regent Street parking garage. That way you’ve got UPS, FedEx, and USPS all within a block of each other. Or maybe In the Orpheum/Promised Valley Playhouse Facade.

[Blah_Amazing]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

Design is fine, not spectacular. Agree that ground floor engagement is lacking. This is why I think we need stricter design standards at least at ground level throughout downtown, and force them to go through the planning process for a project of this size. We will never get better street engagement without stricter standards and enforcement.

The more I think about the design, the more I like it. The copper on the full length of the exterior is such a unique an interesting detail for a tower downtown. I can just imagine how the sunsets would catch the copper-clad western face of the tower and it would just shimmer and glow!

As for street engagement, I think this works. One of my favorite places to stop downtown (obviously pre-Covid) is that cafe at the base of 111. It was always busy and I've met a few really cool people there. I could see how a similar place would do really well in this location.

[delts145]

Originally Posted by SLCNative

We are never going to get vibrant streets like that again unless we build more residential downtown. Whether you like the design or not, it is helping bring residents into the city 24/7. Not just 9-5 on weekdays.

Originally Posted by Atlas

Edit: beat me to it

One thing downtown has been missing in recent decades is residents. People used to actually live downtown and it seems like the tide has finally been shifting back away from suburbia and auto-dependence lately. I would expect more ground floor retail once there is a larger consistent base of customers and, like the BSL article mentions, there will be upwards of 5000 new residents downtown in the next year or two. What was the total population downtown 10 years ago? 12k? That's going to be a huge increase and a boon to downtown business.

This Worthington Tower will be a welcome addition in that regard, and it does actually have ground floor retail. The podium is definitely underwhelming but if the facade looks as good as the renders it will be a nice addition. It's certainly nicer than Liberty Sky, imo.

I agree with you both. Also, I agree with Blah_Amazing regarding the copper color. Attractive, interesting, and a welcome change for downtown.

Aren't all of these upcoming residential towers focusing on rentals, not condo sales? I'm sure there will be a market for the uber-wealthy/second home market condos developing shortly in the downtown area. However, for now, the overwhelming majority of these new towers will be built to accommodate those in the market to rent and have the higher tech, etc. income to rent downtown. Most will be singles and or dinks. Apparently, the latest reports are that the Salt Lake Market is one of the primary beneficiaries of the California and certain other States exodus.

Salt Lake has had a robust economy for quite some time now. COVID, while draining many metros of their brain and economic power, has only served to accelerate the Wasatch Fronts economic growth. A good insight as to what is happening and going to continue for the foreseeable future is this latest report out from the Milken Institute, https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/2/...-affordability.

Something worth noticing is definitely going on by way of a significant cosmic shift in Metro Salt Lake City. When was the last time the Wasatch Front had major developments being announced on a weekly basis? How often do we have two brand new from the ground up major ski resorts coming online? One of which will be targeted to the world's most wealthy clients, think Amangiri as a ski resort. Even Aspen and Deer Valley will be comparatively more along the line of commercial. Many existing resorts are talking or are in the midst of major expansion. Even Sundance was sold to international heavyweights, which I never thought I would see, and now announces the beginning of new structures and doubling its size.

When the Olympics and its thousands of international attendees converge upon Salt Lake City in 2030 or 34 it will be quite a different city from what it was in 2002. There will be a lot more of everything including retail, fancy hotels, and great entertainment, but it will be more expensive than what Utahn's have been used to over the years. Current business owners who can hang on like Marv and Pusher or the upcoming new business owners will thrive and greatly expand downtown Salt Lake's offerings. That said, you're going to have to pay more to frequent their businesses, that is if they're in the downtown area. In short, I predict that much of Salt Lake City Proper is going to be a very upscale, internationally popular, expensive island.

[nushiof]

They are starting to install glass panels on the west side of the CCH today.

[SLC PopPunk]

Originally Posted by nushiof

They are starting to install glass panels on the west side of the CCH today.

I don't know anything about construction, but it seems really early in the project to be installing glass.

Can anyone weigh in why they may be installing it now, I would love to learn more.

[SLCLvr]

The old timey pictures of streets thronged with shoppers downtown in pre-suburban mall days were mostly people who didn't live downtown but came downtown by bus, streetcar, later by car, because there wasn't any other place to do major shopping in the valley. I'm all for people living downtown, the more the merrier, but it's a slow process so it will continue to be creatively drawing people from outside downtown to experience the arts, sports, religious events, Christmas lights, dining, bars, festivals, entertainment, and unique shopping (not to mention convention goers) that will liven up Downtown post-pandemic. And maybe sightseeing all the towers going up.

[palmloverking]

Originally Posted by Blah_Amazing

The more I think about the design, the more I like it. The copper on the full length of the exterior is such a unique an interesting detail for a tower downtown. I can just imagine how the sunsets would catch the copper-clad western face of the tower and it would just shimmer and glow!

I agree 100%. I quite like it actually. Reflective metal + sunshine on highrises is so beautiful. And I know we're probably just referring to the color and not any actual design materials, but if they did use actual copper clad for the facade, that would be my dream come true.

I love when copper is used in building design and then allowed to patina into a matte blue/green in the following 5-15 years. Given the very heavy distribution of industrial sites along the Wasatch front ( Kennecott copper mine, the oil refinery, Geneva, etc.) plus our inversion-prone geography trapping in pollutants like sulfur dioxide, I think we could potentially set a world record for how fast architectural copper patinas.

Another fun aspect of copper is that there are a lot of factors in the composition of the atmosphere that affect the appearance of copper patina, in some places the composition of the local atmosphere (influenced by humidity and certain atmospheric chemicals) could make copper patina into a blueish color, whereas a different location's atmosphere could yield a sea-green color, and of course everything in between. I would love to see what the air of the Wasatch front would produce, and a building with this much copper-clad facade would be an awesome way to see that

[Atlas]

I get that there's frustration over the Tavernacle but downtown not being the bustling center of activity it once was is not an SLC-specific problem. I think therefore that the rancor directed at SLC itself is largely unjustified. The automobile and the proliferation of suburbia after WW2 destroyed many, if not most, great downtown centers in the US. The exceptional places that weathered this exodus, such as Chicago and NYC, did so by already having exceptional existing transit networks and huge populations living downtown.

The pace of development is picking up and, with general attitudes among young people and transplants shifting toward walkability and access to amenities, I have to think it's going to be mostly positive for downtown (at least in terms of street vitality). The Worthington displacing local businesses isn't cool but most of the developments happening now do have street engagement and are being built on underutilized land. I do agree that SLC needs more cultural attractions downtown though. Why is the soccer stadium in Sandy? Why is the aquarium in Draper? We need more museums and venues downtown.

Originally Posted by Comrade

I bet these condos are being gobbled up by those who've already retired and want to downsize and not have to deal with the homes out in suburban Salt Lake.

This logic breaks down for apartments, which make up the vast majority of downtown residential construction at this point in time. Retirees don't want to pay rent.

Originally Posted by palmloverking

I would love to see what the air of the Wasatch front would produce, and a building with this much copper-clad facade would be an awesome way to see that

You can look to the Lassonde building up at the University of Utah to get some idea already. I know they were looking forward to the copper on the exterior looking green eventually but, almost four years later, it's gone from shiny copper to a dull, dirty brown. I'm not sure how long it's supposed to take to reach it's final finish. I actually preferred the shiny copper to the way it looks now.

[palmloverking]

Originally Posted by Atlas

You can look to the Lassonde building up at the University of Utah to get some idea already. I know they were looking forward to the copper on the exterior looking green eventually but, almost four years later, it's gone from shiny copper to a dull, dirty brown. I'm not sure how long it's supposed to take to reach it's final finish. I actually preferred the shiny copper to the way it looks now.

Oh wow, that is awesome! had no idea that building existed! Thank you for sharing that.
That's about what I would expect at the 4-year mark, copper tends to get much more ugly and brown from its pretty light-orange starting point before it starts to lighten up again and turn blue/green. Here's an image that might help visualize the transformation

[Blah_Amazing]

I've walked by the Lassonde all the time, and I can assure you, it still is very, very shiny. I think the day that photo was taken was overcast (if you notice the coloring of everything is very dark). Also, the copper facing on the Lassone are on the north and south sides of the building (there are small parts that face south that do glow), so it doesn't really catch the sunlight like it would with the whole thing facing east and/or west (the photo Atlas posted is taken from the south side).

I would also point out this image of the Lassande (west side) from 2017 when it opened, where you can see those same markings in the copper. I'm pretty sure they have always been there. That's not to say that it won't age, its metal. All metal weathers with age. But Lassande is still far from being dull. It also hasn't turned green, so I don't know if there is treatments they put on the copper to prevent that or something.



It may not be their intention to put actual copper on the exterior and just have it be copper color. That would be a bit of a let down, but the different color would still allow the building to stand out.

[Atlas]

No, they definitely want it to weather. I actually met one of the decision-makers on the Lassonde project back in 2017 (when I actually worked there for a time) and she told me that they didn't have the budget to get pre-weathered copper panels. Apparently it's much less expensive to buy pristine copper panels and let them age naturally, so that's what they decided to go with. Here's one of the original renders:



To my eye, it was definitely shinier in 2017 than it is now.

[Blah_Amazing]

Originally Posted by Atlas

No, they definitely want it to weather. I actually met one of the decision-makers on the Lassonde project back in 2017 (when I actually worked there for a time) and she told me that they didn't have the budget to get pre-weathered copper panels. Apparently it's much less expensive to buy pristine copper panels and let them age naturally, so that's what they decided to go with. Here's one of the original renders:



To my eye, it was definitely shinier in 2017 than it is now.

Interesting. I didn't know that. I actually like the rendering with the blue/green color tbh.

How do they keep the two towers downtown with copper roofs from oxidizing then I wonder? Are they just copper colored?

[Blah_Amazing]

Salt Lake City Tower Projects - Under Construction, Proposed, and Prospective. Feb 19, 2021. Who would have guessed I would have to update this just days later. I included the new 'Worthington Tower' (#5) as well as a list of the names of each project. Most up-to-date renderings available to the public.

[Waimea]

Originally Posted by Blah_Amazing

Salt Lake City Tower Projects - Under Construction, Proposed, and Prospective. Feb 19, 2021. Who would have guessed I would have to update this just days later. I included the new 'Worthington Tower' (#5) as well as a list of the names of each project. Most up-to-date renderings available to the public.

Wow. They all look the same, just like boxes. Nothing creative about any of these designs.

[Blah_Amazing]

Originally Posted by Waimea

Wow. They all look the same, just like boxes. Nothing creative about any of these designs.

Every tower (that isn't some billion dollar project in New York, China, or Dubai) would likely fit in the category of 'boxes.'

I actually think there is significant variety in these projects, though I wish more of them would have taller or more varied crowns.

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by Waimea

Wow. They all look the same, just like boxes. Nothing creative about any of these designs.

We know.

Also, welcome to the board!

[Blah_Amazing]

BTW, #7 should be 370, not 360. I must have missed that when reviewing the document.