Religion in Canada

[GlassCity]

I was baptised, however my whole family is not religious at all. In Ukraine being baptised and getting your cross necklace is really just a meaningless ceremony steeped in tradition, not religion. It's like Christmas. But yeah, my entire life has been completely void of religion, and I've grown up with the mindset that sure a higher power could exist, but it's not something that I would make part of my identity, let alone change my lifestyle for.

For this reason I'm wary of a few of your calls for religious education. We don't have it in any form in BC, and I'm glad. Kids should also not be sent to Sunday school just because. I see religion as something that should go away as soon as possible, and promoting it as an option to children is something we should avoid. Each generation should be more secular than the last.

As far as Islam goes, I also don't tie it to terrorism. Muslims don't worry me in the form of terrorism whatsoever. However, I do worry about their cultural imposition, as is going on in Europe right now. I read an article for a class today about how a bunch of Danes got really angry over the fact that pork meatballs (apparently a significant national dish) had to be stop being served at schools because the Muslim kids couldn't eat them. While the article was supposed to make this sound ridiculous, as in why are these Danes so pissed off about meatballs, I actually found myself sympathizing with them. These immigrants that Denmark graciously accepted were now affecting the local culture, because it didn't jive with theirs. Now I respect religious freedom and accommodations (for example it'd be fine if they also made a chicken dish, and I'm not sure why this wasn't an option) but when it gets to the point of stripping the host culture, it gets to be too far. I know it's a slippery slope fallacy, but you'd have to think, what's next? This is of course still minor, but as Acajack mentioned there are a number of muslims that are more extreme in their beliefs and, while admittedly largely due to ignorance, it scares me.

[mousquet]

I'm Christian... By choice. Faith came to me in my early 20s. I didn't care before and was proud to call myself an atheist when I was a teen, calling religion a useless superstition. It is actually no superstition at all, it's human science and a better way to look at what surrounds you.

I agree that the Islamic and Jewish food rules can be deeply annoying. You see some Muslims who put all their freaking prides in not eating pork, just as if it made them any better. That's pretty farcical. However, when you tell the cooler Muslims at peace how yummy delicatessen based on pork can be, they just smile and answer - yeah, quite possibly. They don't care. I mean there's no reason to look at the Muslims as particularly stubborn or aggressive people. When they live a diverse community, they go diverse just like anyone else. It's a process no one would resist. The so called Muslim world itself is not anything homogeneous, it's quite diverse and faces the same challenges as the rest of the world in that matter.

As for schools, a fair solution would be making school restaurants look more like this...


http://www.gramadogrillraposo.com.br/self-service.php

When they have a choice, I don't think Muslim kids annoy anyone. And to those bullying other kids who eat pork around them, punishment to teach them tolerance.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

However, I do worry about their cultural imposition, as is going on in Europe right now. I read an article for a class today about how a bunch of Danes got really angry over the fact that pork meatballs (apparently a significant national dish) had to be stop being served at schools because the Muslim kids couldn't eat them. While the article was supposed to make this sound ridiculous, as in why are these Danes so pissed off about meatballs, I actually found myself sympathizing with them. These immigrants that Denmark graciously accepted were now affecting the local culture, because it didn't jive with theirs. Now I respect religious freedom and accommodations (for example it'd be fine if they also made a chicken dish, and I'm not sure why this wasn't an option) but when it gets to the point of stripping the host culture, it gets to be too far. I know it's a slippery slope fallacy, but you'd have to think, what's next? This is of course still minor, but as Acajack mentioned there are a number of muslims that are more extreme in their beliefs and, while admittedly largely due to ignorance, it scares me.

The whole banning of all pork in mixed settings like schools, etc. has been attempted in Canada as well (somewhat successfully in some places I suspect). This is a good example of stuff I have an issue with.

BTW we've had Jewish people in Canada for a century or more and as a kid I went to school with a number of them (and actually worked for some of them as a teenager and can't remember pork/bacon/ham being an issue for any of them. In fact, I never even knew they had food restrictions of that sort until I was in university and an idiot waved a piece of bacon in front of the nose of a Jewish friend of mine in the cafeteria. I actually later asked him, dumbfounded, "WTF was that about?"

Now before you get the knives out, I don't believe all Muslims are this picky about not have pork around them or their kids. Certainly the ones I know are not.

And also, not all Jews are cool about things. I have some pretty big issues with some things you find in the more Orthodox Jewish communities for example.

I also have issues with some Christian practices as well.

Note that my criticisms are "behaviour"-related, as opposed to being "presumed".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

If you mean Europe, that's not setting our bar very high in this context.

There is a very good chance that Europe at the moment could be the proving ground for what things will be like here at some point in the future. We'd be wise to keep an eye on things over there and not repeat their mistakes.

[GreatTallNorth2]

I am a Christian living in SW Ontario, but I despise the way Christianity is defined by mixing together politics and religion in the U.S. It's maybe hard to explain, but since the media so strongly influences U.S. and Canadian culture, it is easy to paint a false picture of Christianity and people believe that is what all Christians are like. I am quite happy with a simple faith, not a fan of mega rich, mega mouth preachers.

[Acajack]

Irshad Manji comments on the niqab issue in this report:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX3253mpE_U

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The whole banning of all pork in mixed settings like schools, etc. has been attempted in Canada as well (somewhat successfully in some places I suspect). This is a good example of stuff I have an issue with.

BTW we've had Jewish people in Canada for a century or more and as a kid I went to school with a number of them (and actually worked for some of them as a teenager and can't remember pork/bacon/ham being an issue for any of them. In fact, I never even knew they had food restrictions of that sort until I was in university and an idiot waved a piece of bacon in front of the nose of a Jewish friend of mine in the cafeteria. I actually later asked him, dumbfounded, "WTF was that about?"

Now before you get the knives out, I don't believe all Muslims are this picky about not have pork around them or their kids. Certainly the ones I know are not.

And also, not all Jews are cool about things. I have some pretty big issues with some things you find in the more Orthodox Jewish communities for example.

I also have issues with some Christian practices as well.

Note that my criticisms are "behaviour"-related, as opposed to being "presumed".

Just to note that there have been Jews in Canada since the Conquest. Not all Jews keep kosher (in Tel Aviv, its not hard to find pork, which is known as "white meat"), but for those who do the dietary restrictions do pose problems. I assume that in mixed public settings, they have always been quietly accommodated in some fashion. The difference with the Muslim community is one of scale as it is much bigger now than the Jewish community and the dietary restrictions are more widely adhered to. These are issues that are very easily accommodated, imho, unless people want to make things contentious.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

I am a Christian living in SW Ontario, but I despise the way Christianity is defined by mixing together politics and religion in the U.S. It's maybe hard to explain, but since the media so strongly influences U.S. and Canadian culture, it is easy to paint a false picture of Christianity and people believe that is what all Christians are like. I am quite happy with a simple faith, not a fan of mega rich, mega mouth preachers.

I agree, although I do find it legitimate for church leaders to offer comments on social/political issues. I have been struck by the silence of the mainstream Protestant churches on the current niqab controversy (at least I haven't seen anything). The United Church, at least, I would have expected to be all over it. Perhaps they feel inhibited while an election campaign is under way?

[Deepstar]

That's my biggest issue with Religion, it divides people and only unites those of the same religion. This is mainly with Muslims, as their religion is a lifestyle as much or even more than as it is a belief. That might change with future generations, and you do see it with some of the younger members, but for the moment that's how it is.

I would sympathise with the Danes too. There's no reason they should have to stop serving the meatballs. It's a case of bowing to the lowest common denominator. If you can't partake, I guess nobody else should be able to.
You're right though, the easiest solution would have been to just serve a second dish of course.

Originally Posted by GlassCity

As far as Islam goes, I also don't tie it to terrorism. Muslims don't worry me in the form of terrorism whatsoever. However, I do worry about their cultural imposition, as is going on in Europe right now. I read an article for a class today about how a bunch of Danes got really angry over the fact that pork meatballs (apparently a significant national dish) had to be stop being served at schools because the Muslim kids couldn't eat them. While the article was supposed to make this sound ridiculous, as in why are these Danes so pissed off about meatballs, I actually found myself sympathizing with them. These immigrants that Denmark graciously accepted were now affecting the local culture, because it didn't jive with theirs. Now I respect religious freedom and accommodations (for example it'd be fine if they also made a chicken dish, and I'm not sure why this wasn't an option) but when it gets to the point of stripping the host culture, it gets to be too far. I know it's a slippery slope fallacy, but you'd have to think, what's next? This is of course still minor, but as Acajack mentioned there are a number of muslims that are more extreme in their beliefs and, while admittedly largely due to ignorance, it scares me.

[Deepstar]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There is a very good chance that Europe at the moment could be the proving ground for what things will be like here at some point in the future. We'd be wise to keep an eye on things over there and not repeat their mistakes.

Good or bad, how things are going in France and Europe is the way things could go in other countries. Canada and the US might be different as our immigrants come from all over the world and not just the Middle east and North Africa.

[Boris2k7]

We also don't share a land border with Asia, don't have former overseas colonies, and were a nation of immigrants from the get-go. I personally don't see the struggles that Europe is going through as particularly instructive for North America.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by mousquet

I'm Christian... By choice. Faith came to me in my early 20s. I didn't care before and was proud to call myself an atheist when I was a teen, calling religion a useless superstition. It is actually no superstition at all, it's human science and a better way to look at what surrounds you.

And here we go.

Religion is the very definition of superstition. Via the Oxford online dictionary: "Excessively credulous belief in and reverence for supernatural beings"; "A widely held but unjustified belief in supernatural causation leading to certain consequences of an action or event, or a practice based on such a belief."

The idea that religion is a "human science" and "a better way to look at what surrounds you" is a bizarre thing to say in the 21st century, and is now demonstrably, objectively false. That's religion as metaphysics, and while metaphysics is fascinating as an account of how humans have attempted to come to grips with the world and their place in the world in the past, as a former university classmate once declared very pithily: "metaphysics is not science or philosophy: it's poetry."

And therein lies the true value of religion, I think. People who sincerely and earnestly believe in an anthropomorphic sky god guiding a surgeon's hand to success in Aunt Matilda's hernia operation while somehow neglecting to prevent boats of refugees from capsizing in the Mediterranean (or childhood cancers, or starvation, or thousands of other forms of terrible human suffering--the list goes on and on) are ignorant, pathetic and even deplorable as human beings, but those who partake in religious ritual for the comfort and enjoyment of it as tradition seem to have a more reasonable approach to it.

Singing in choirs can be therapeutic and cathartic.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by Deepstar

Good or bad, how things are going in France and Europe is the way things could go in other countries. Canada and the US might be different as our immigrants come from all over the world and not just the Middle east and North Africa.

I think comparing us to Europe is a false equivalence. Several countries like Sweden and France don't even do well with their standard immigration policies, leading to double digit unemployment even for their highly educated and well vetted new arrivals. They have systems that make things lopsided difficult for new entrants to their country. Of course refugees are going to suffer even more.

Canada has one of the best immigration systems and economic integration rates in the world. They should be looking to us more than we are looking to them.

[topdog]

If I had a dollar for each time I've heard the refrain 'Inshallah' or 'it was god's will' whenever something bad has happened I'd be a billionaire. What good is a god that randomly helps some and allows bad for others??

As far as Jesus goes I'm on the fence. I'd like to believe he wasn't just made up, bit existed as a mortal who simply wanted to spread the message of peace and love. I don't buy all the stuff of him descending back to earth and what not, just a mortal spreading peace.

Originally Posted by rousseau

And therein lies the true value of religion, I think. People who sincerely and earnestly believe in an anthropomorphic sky god guiding a surgeon's hand to success in Aunt Matilda's hernia operation while somehow neglecting to prevent boats of refugees from capsizing in the Mediterranean (or childhood cancers, or starvation, or thousands of other forms of terrible human suffering--the list goes on and on) are ignorant, pathetic and even deplorable as human beings, but those who partake in religious ritual for the comfort and enjoyment of it as tradition seem to have a more reasonable approach to it.

Singing in choirs can be therapeutic and cathartic.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The whole banning of all pork in mixed settings like schools, etc. has been attempted in Canada as well (somewhat successfully in some places I suspect). This is a good example of stuff I have an issue with.

I don't really understand the resistance here given that the accommodation of students who require Kosher or Halal food has happened at the same time that the mainstream (for lack of a better term) has seen its own relationship to food change so dramatically. Students who are vegetarian, vegan or gluten-free are generally accommodated as well, at least where reasonable. Of course there are certain religious groups who maintain a vegetarian lifestyle (some Hindus, some Buddhists, &c.), but I'd imagine that - for the most part - these accommodations are made for reasons other than religion. On top of that, the rise of nut allergies has already shaken up the traditional student lunch diet so much (no more PB&J on white bread with crusts cut off by housewife mom) that change was coming anyways.

We didn't have a cafeteria in elementary school and the high school cafeteria was only used by a minority of students on any given day. Maybe I'd get it more if I'd been raised in a place where hot school lunches were expected. I'd imagine the differing cultural significance of various meals plays a part as well - my brown paper bag lunch makes sense in Anglo-North America, but it likely would horrify parents in a country where the midday meal is the big meal of the day.

My roommate works in a small daycare that takes care of children from a variety of cultural and religious backgrounds.* They've stopped serving meat at lunchtime altogether - it's too difficult to keep on top of who's kosher, who's halal, who's vegetarian, &c., especially as staff time and kitchen facilities are both limited. But that's not the only reason; cultural attitudes towards meat have shifted and parents just don't seem to think it's a necessary part of a meal (or even a desirable part of every meal, even where a child may eat meat at dinner). Food safety regulations and nutritional guidelines also play a role.

What I really don't understand is people who get worked up about avoiding halal food. I mean, if you're an atheist, why would you care about this stuff at all? At least in Toronto, it's kind of assumed you'll wind up eating halal meat somewhat regularly without even knowing it (especially if you eat out a lot). I think some people even equate "halal" or "kosher" with "more humane" and actually prefer it (not that they would go out of their way to acquire it, mind you).

*(I believe the most demanding parents for dietary accommodation in her daycare are the (mostly) white well-to-do folks who, IMHO, use dietary restrictions as a form of class signifier)

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Irshad Manji comments on the niqab issue in this report:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX3253mpE_U

I thought this report was really excellent and an intelligent take on the issue. One thing that really stood out to me was at the end when the reporter revealed that, "Muslim women I spoke to today said many decide to wear more traditional Islamic clothing only once they arrive in Canada; they feel they have more choice here. They worry now that public opinion and politics will make that choice a lot harder"

It seems that for all the fears of outsiders not accepting Canadian values and culture it may be just the opposite. That they actually are changing and embracing Canadian values and adopting one of its core tenants, namely respect for freedom and individualism. Ironically, all the reactionism and cultural protectionism may be doing just the opposite by making us more like countless other societies who place trivialities ahead of such core principles.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Ironically, all the reactionism and cultural protectionism may be doing just the opposite by making us more like countless other societies who place trivialities ahead of such core principles.

As a thought experiment imagine you were a women who recently came to Canada largely for the religious and personal freedoms that we are famous for. Imagine you have been proudly wearing your niqab for years and never had a single issue.

Now imagine that all over the news, you see anger and fury directed at the niqab. You constantly see the media obsessed with it, you see news of Muslim women wearing niqabs being attacked from Montreal to Toronto. You see politicians constantly talking about it in the federal election. You see media obsess over the fact that 80% of Canadians don't want you to wear it during a citizenship ceremony. It seems the media and Canada are absolutely obsessed with it.

That isn't the Canada that this women assumed she was coming too when she arrived. I don't see how anyone wouldn't be uncomfortable living in that environment and feeling safe to make choices for themselves.

[mousquet]

I know well this world is still unbearable, and that's precisely why we need God.

Originally Posted by rousseau

The idea that religion is a "human science" and "a better way to look at what surrounds you" is a bizarre thing to say in the 21st century, and is now demonstrably, objectively false. That's religion as metaphysics, and while metaphysics is fascinating as an account of how humans have attempted to come to grips with the world and their place in the world in the past, as a former university classmate once declared very pithily: "metaphysics is not science or philosophy: it's poetry."

Oh, really? Metaphysics is nothing absolute, it is almost by definition subjective, "fucking impressionistic," if you allow me.

But I challenge you to strictly show me that God is a nonsense. You can't, no one ever could. And by showing it, I mean strict logic. Logic. Which means enough peace in your mind to do the math. Math or plain historical evidences, for only those are worthy down here, basically. Math or historic documents. All greatest philosophers did a serious effort at that, and then all went speechless, or outright insane as Pascal.

You compute and then we talk about it later, if you're still sane... God is obviously something only intuitive, which makes Him so sweet and priceless. Intuitions are priceless, quite including in sciences.

[topdog]

I don't believe anyone cares about eating Halal, or that others are accommodated. It's the story from Denmark that's the issue. Taking away others people's food to accommodate someone is the issue. Why they just didn't add another option and keep the meatballs is also a question.

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

I don't really understand the resistance here given that the accommodation of students who require Kosher or Halal food has happened at the same time that the mainstream (for lack of a better term) has seen its own relationship to food change so dramatically. Students who are vegetarian, vegan or gluten-free are generally accommodated as well, at least where reasonable. Of course there are certain religious groups who maintain a vegetarian lifestyle (some Hindus, some Buddhists, &c.), but I'd imagine that - for the most part - these accommodations are made for reasons other than religion. On top of that, the rise of nut allergies has already shaken up the traditional student lunch diet so much (no more PB&J on white bread with crusts cut off by housewife mom) that change was coming anyways.

We didn't have a cafeteria in elementary school and the high school cafeteria was only used by a minority of students on any given day. Maybe I'd get it more if I'd been raised in a place where hot school lunches were expected. I'd imagine the differing cultural significance of various meals plays a part as well - my brown paper bag lunch makes sense in Anglo-North America, but it likely would horrify parents in a country where the midday meal is the big meal of the day.

My roommate works in a small daycare that takes care of children from a variety of cultural and religious backgrounds.* They've stopped serving meat at lunchtime altogether - it's too difficult to keep on top of who's kosher, who's halal, who's vegetarian, &c., especially as staff time and kitchen facilities are both limited. But that's not the only reason; cultural attitudes towards meat have shifted and parents just don't seem to think it's a necessary part of a meal (or even a desirable part of every meal, even where a child may eat meat at dinner). Food safety regulations and nutritional guidelines also play a role.

What I really don't understand is people who get worked up about avoiding halal food. I mean, if you're an atheist, why would you care about this stuff at all? At least in Toronto, it's kind of assumed you'll wind up eating halal meat somewhat regularly without even knowing it (especially if you eat out a lot). I think some people even equate "halal" or "kosher" with "more humane" and actually prefer it (not that they would go out of their way to acquire it, mind you).

*(I believe the most demanding parents for dietary accommodation in her daycare are the (mostly) white well-to-do folks who, IMHO, use dietary restrictions as a form of class signifier)

[MolsonExport]

When two parties are in a discussion and one affirms a claim that the other disputes, the one who affirms has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim.