Calgary Roads

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by sim

Gas taxes are perhaps reasonably elegant, but they aren't the right solution. Would you only raise this in the region where they are meant to fund said infrastructure? If so, how do you determine that boundary? Why? You will also get some interesting changes in who fills up where.

If not, you've put the costs of congestion onto people that have essentially nothing to do with causing it, i.e. rural residents. Nor do rural drivers contribute to local emissions to the same level or noise. If you are going to use a tax to internalize negative externalities, the tax should best be applied to those that actually cause those externalities.

To ameliorate the perception of HOT lanes being so called "Lexus lanes" (only for the rich), and on mores so on the basis of greater social equilibrium (both economically and socially), the tolls collected would largely go toward improving alternative modes. The portion allocated to roadways would go to maintenance and minor improvements only, not upgrades and additional lanes. Why fund something that created the problem in the first place?

Lexus lanes is an excellent name for them - thank you. That is exactly what they will achieve, the well off can drive to work unhindered while the rest of the city suffer on an even crappier road.

I agree that a city wide gas tax wouldn't be a good idea. A province wide tax however could be used to fund infrastructure for all - things like improving Highway 2 will benefit everybody directly or indirectly as well as more localised city improvements. Gas taxes do also indirectly target congestion to some extent - your vehicle burns more fuel in traffic.

To be clear though I would only support a moderate tax rate and only if the fund was legally ring fenced forever. I certainly do not want a situation like the UK where tax is 80% of the cost of fuel creating punishing costs dragging everything down, with the money going into a general pot.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Lexus lanes is an excellent name for them - thank you. That is exactly what they will achieve, the well off can drive to work unhindered while the rest of the city suffer on an even crappier road.

I agree that a city wide gas tax wouldn't be a good idea. A province wide tax however could be used to fund infrastructure for all - things like improving Highway 2 will benefit everybody directly or indirectly as well as more localised city improvements. Gas taxes do also indirectly target congestion to some extent - your vehicle burns more fuel in traffic.

To be clear though I would only support a moderate tax rate and only if the fund was legally ring fenced forever. I certainly do not want a situation like the UK where tax is 80% of the cost of fuel creating punishing costs dragging everything down, with the money going into a general pot.

While province wide taxes would be better (to avoid tax dodging and capture a wider pool that is using the roads the new taxes are paying for)... who cares about the Highway 2 route. You have 1.2 million people + 1.1 million people on either end who for the most part stay where they are. Improving highway 2 or teasing the idea of improving highway 2 is cheap politics.

The billions that improving inter-city travel would be vastly more economically efficiently spent within the cities improving intracity travel, withinCalgary or Edmonton. Deerfoot, LRT projects, BRT etc.

A huge reason our city is in the infrastructure deficit we are in is because of our blatant disenfranchising of urban votes vs. rural "hwy 2" votes. The cities (calgary and edmonton) pay far more than their share, in both $ per voting representative and $ per population.

Screw the hinterlands; it might be easier to sell (as our democracy is set up that way) but the cities get the short end of the stick every time.

As far as gas tax, I am all for it. Increase it everywhere. I don't mind "lexus lanes" as long as they are paying for the externalities that their traffic causes. The not rich citizens can't drive to work? well that is an externalities that the lanes need to pay for. Jack the price and the system will hit equilibrium, enough to pay an extra lane for those who can't imagine paying an extra buck to drive on their subsidized roads.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by MasterG

who cares about the Highway 2 route. You have 1.2 million people + 1.1 million people on either end who for the most part stay where they are. Improving highway 2 or teasing the idea of improving highway 2 is cheap politics.

Sorry, have I missed part of this conversation? You're probably the first person I've seen who doesn't think Highway 2 needs some upgrades.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

Sorry, have I missed part of this conversation? You're probably the first person I've seen who doesn't think Highway 2 needs some upgrades.

Sure it needs upgrades, I am not arguing that. My argument is that inter-city transportation improvements is less important and has a lower bang-for-buck than the intra-city projects that are currently not funded (including Deerfoot improvements, SE transit, Edmonton's LRT projects etc.)

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Lexus lanes is an excellent name for them - thank you. That is exactly what they will achieve, the well off can drive to work unhindered while the rest of the city suffer on an even crappier road.

I agree that a city wide gas tax wouldn't be a good idea. A province wide tax however could be used to fund infrastructure for all - things like improving Highway 2 will benefit everybody directly or indirectly as well as more localised city improvements. Gas taxes do also indirectly target congestion to some extent - your vehicle burns more fuel in traffic.

To be clear though I would only support a moderate tax rate and only if the fund was legally ring fenced forever. I certainly do not want a situation like the UK where tax is 80% of the cost of fuel creating punishing costs dragging everything down, with the money going into a general pot.

Forever is impossible to do legal wise, but you can make it politically unpalatable to direct it elsewhere.

[milomilo]

Sadly gas taxes here I imagine would be politically unfeasible. By my calculation, a 10c/l tax on gas and diesel could bring in $1B annually, if this table is accurate.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Sadly gas taxes here I imagine would be politically unfeasible. By my calculation, a 10c/l tax on gas and diesel could bring in $1B annually, if this table is accurate.

Off road use of fuel for transportation and power generation isn't taxed. Current Alberta gas tax exemptions and costs:

Tax Exempt Fuel Use program (marked fuel for off‑road use) $222.3 million
Farm Fuel Benefit (marked fuel) $71.0 million
Reduced rate for railway diesel $24.0 million
Exemption for aviation fuel used on international flights $4.7 million

Revenue, current taxes, and how much money the government makes per unit of tax:

Gasoline $567 million @ 9.0 ¢/litre = 63 million per ¢/litre
Diesel $375 million @ 9.0 ¢/litre = 41.7 per ¢/litre
Propane $4 million @ 6.5 ¢/litre =0.6 per ¢/litre
Aviation $14 million @ 1.5 ¢/litre = 9.3 per ¢/litre
Railway $5 million @ 1.5 ¢/litre = 3.3 per ¢/litre

With current exemptions remaining in place, and no additional tax avoidance, 10 ¢/litre on diesel would raise $1.047 billion a year.

Edit: Statscan already excluded the non-taxed fuel. Realistically, an increase in fuel tax is just keeping pace with the litres per km driven. No reason to believe road access fees should drop when the vehicle fleet becomes more efficient.

[PPAR]

Noticed some new information on the Provincial Transportation website the other day. Looks like the west side Stoney Trail extension south from the TransCanada to Glenmore Trail will be tendered as a P3 project shortly, with a construction start date next spring.
The Premier's comments quoted in the paper this morning would support that timeline.

[craner]

^Well that's exciting news - just made my day.

[lubicon]

That would be great news for me too. Split the contract into two parts, and start what you can immediately (TCH to Glenmore). No sense waiting another year or more while the land transfer is finalized. As long as the Glenmore upgrades are done simultaneously this is ideal for me. I can already hear the City whining about their lack of money for said upgrades though.

[You Need A Thneed]

Retail, office and industrial projects springing up near airport tunnel


... To the surprise of no one.

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by lubicon

That would be great news for me too. Split the contract into two parts, and start what you can immediately (TCH to Glenmore). No sense waiting another year or more while the land transfer is finalized. As long as the Glenmore upgrades are done simultaneously this is ideal for me. I can already hear the City whining about their lack of money for said upgrades though.

Yeah, as long as Glenmore is upgraded as far as Sarcee as part of this project, it makes sense and will improve access to the TCH westbound for everybody north of Fish Creek/east of the Reservoir. I'm surprised it took this long to get it off the ground, to be honest.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

Retail, office and industrial projects springing up near airport tunnel


... To the surprise of no one.

Sprawl tunnel!

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

Retail, office and industrial projects springing up near airport tunnel


... To the surprise of no one.

Haha, yeah. Just drive on Deerfoot and see all the signage for the office/warehouse parks on either side of it between Airport Trail and CHB.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

Retail, office and industrial projects springing up near airport tunnel


... To the surprise of no one.

Time for some more interchange funding for Airport and Barlow Trails. How many suburban interchange projects will jump ahead of Transit projects on the funding priority list?

[MalcolmTucker]

17 transportation 'road' projects on the 10 year tipp. More will be added when more city funding from the province is confirmed post 2017 / end of MSI 10 year funding agreement, minus future borrowing for the Airport Tunnel.

[milomilo]

Major developments had already been pushing forward in the farmers’ fields north and east of the airport after completion of the northeast ring road, expansion of Metis Trail and new LRT stations in the northeast.

It's not just roads causing sprawl...

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by milomilo

It's not just roads causing sprawl...

Yeah, but sprawl might not be such a dirty word if communities were better designed for transit and active transportation.


Anyway, better by the airport than by Balzac.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by milomilo

It's not just roads causing sprawl...

Won't be long until Rocky View County is clamoring for an 'Outer Ring Road'.

[googspecial]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

Won't be long until Rocky View County is clamoring for an 'Outer Ring Road'.

According to my Transportation Engineering Instructor at SAIT, the province is already buying up land as it comes available for the outer rings roads of both Calgary & Edmonton.