PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown III

[DKNewYork]

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

There's no way you can build a sizeable 10-story building for $32 million over that large of a footprint. That's more like 3-4 stories wood frame, 250 units.

I would think that a college dorm would be significantly less expensive than an one being built for and marketed to non-students. No kitchens, less expensive finishes, etc. No?

[Bricktrimble]

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

There's no way you can build a sizeable 10-story building for $32 million over that large of a footprint. That's more like 3-4 stories wood frame, 250 units.

Here is the information from the CMU Master Plan that was amended in 2015:

30. North of Fifth New Multi-Use Building

DESCRIPTION: New mixed use building with up to 150 surface and structured parking spaces

USES: Academic, research, residential, conference, administrative, support, surface & structure parking

SQUARE FEET: 120,000 gsf (building)

HEIGHT: 3 stories (45 ft) at north end for first 50 ft, 6 stories (85) ft beyond stepback

SETBACK: North: 15 ft from property line; South: 15 ft from Fifth Ave; East: 20 ft from Clyde St; West: 15 ft from site 29

Note: Residential Compatibility Standards apply

[Urbanthusiat]

Originally Posted by DKNewYork

I would think that a college dorm would be significantly less expensive than an one being built for and marketed to non-students. No kitchens, less expensive finishes, etc. No?

Less expensive than regular market rate housing, yes, but still not nearly that cheap. I'm just ballparking here but I imagine if CMU wants to build a dorm, it wouldn't build anything less than 250 units. Probably more. It wouldn't want to skimp out on quality either, since student housing is a huge factor in attracting students. They would use union labor, have top-notch security, and typical dorm amenities. It'll be LEED certified too, no doubt.

Consider this building that was built at Penn in 2017: https://www.pennconnects.upenn.edu/f...e_overview.php

It's six stories, 350 beds, 198k GSF. It cost $127 million two years ago, and costs have only gone up since. Or check out this new tower they have planned: https://www.pennconnects.upenn.edu/f...t_overview.php

13 stories, 450 beds, 250k GSF = $163 million

Unless CMU knows something that Penn doesn't know, I just don't see how you could possibly make a modern student housing building at a top-notch school for $32 million. It's possible the contract given out was a just a small portion of the overall development costs. But otherwise, there's no way you can build a viable 10-story building for $32 million total. I'd be shocked if they ever spent that little on a dorm anyway because it'd be a massive waste. It'd probably is a smaller part of a contract.

[eschaton]

There's yet another plan in the running for the Holy Family Church site in Lawrenceville. It's still in its early phase, but E Properties is working with Indovina on a condo conversion project.

Emphasizing they're working only from an early stage draft subject to revision, the Indovina team presented a plan to build out the church and school for new residential use. The firm, one of the city's most active architecture firms for condo development, proposes building a new structure along 44th Street in what is now a parking lot on the property as well as to add onto the top floor of school.

The development team largely avoided specifying how many units might be included in the plan, once referencing a potential for 55 to 60 units in a project expected to provide 65 parking spaces available on a one-space-per-unit basis; Onwugbenu said the current plan calls for a larger mix of two- and three-bedroom units.

Also, the article notes a 25-unit new construction condo development on Butler Street in Lower Lawrenceville. It lists the address at 3519, but I think this is a typo, and it's actually these parcels, which E Properties owns and has had ZBA hearings for in the past.

[eschaton]

December HRC is up. Seven items this month, and two nominations. Items of interest:

1. Improvements to the "Nakama Building" on South Side - part of a project converting the upper floors into 23 apartment units. The weird, cut corner of the building by Carson and 17th will be modified to look more historically accurate. Also, a small addition will be put in the 20-foot gap in the street wall between the building and Skybar, allowing for a lobby for the apartments and a new-construction stairwell.

2. Minor tweaks to the PAA Walnut Capital project - mostly shrinking the proposed new-construction penthouse area to be less obtrusive.

3. Some small changes to 947 Penn Avenue in the Cultural District. This includes removal of the existing fabric awnings and replacement of the existing fixed window/door system with a new insulated single-swing setup.

4. An attempt to save the Croatian Fraternal Union building in Oakland - which Pitt still plans to demolish - via a historic nomination.

[BrianTH]

That Holy Family Church site has been quite the saga. Isn't that new proposal pretty close to the one that got killed by NIMBYs, except with condos instead of apartments?

[DKNewYork]

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

Less expensive than regular market rate housing, yes, but still not nearly that cheap. I'm just ballparking here but I imagine if CMU wants to build a dorm, it wouldn't build anything less than 250 units. Probably more. It wouldn't want to skimp out on quality either, since student housing is a huge factor in attracting students. They would use union labor, have top-notch security, and typical dorm amenities. It'll be LEED certified too, no doubt.

Consider this building that was built at Penn in 2017: https://www.pennconnects.upenn.edu/f...e_overview.php

It's six stories, 350 beds, 198k GSF. It cost $127 million two years ago, and costs have only gone up since. Or check out this new tower they have planned: https://www.pennconnects.upenn.edu/f...t_overview.php

13 stories, 450 beds, 250k GSF = $163 million

Unless CMU knows something that Penn doesn't know, I just don't see how you could possibly make a modern student housing building at a top-notch school for $32 million. It's possible the contract given out was a just a small portion of the overall development costs. But otherwise, there's no way you can build a viable 10-story building for $32 million total. I'd be shocked if they ever spent that little on a dorm anyway because it'd be a massive waste. It'd probably is a smaller part of a contract.

Makes sense. Thanks. I know that residential building at Penn---I saw it this past fall. It's really well done. I had no idea that it cost $127M but I'm not surprised. It looks expensive. I was also told at the time that the building was designed by Bohlin Cywinski Jackson (Philly office).

[bmust71]

PBT posts article about rugby going ahead with two 8 story buildings (couldn't access the article) in the strip but then I find this one story building listed on their website for that property:

https://www.rugbyrealty.com/portfoli...pittsburgh-pa/

[Brentsters]

Originally Posted by bmust71

PBT posts article about rugby going ahead with two 8 story buildings (couldn't access the article) in the strip but then I find this one story building listed on their website for that property:

https://www.rugbyrealty.com/portfoli...pittsburgh-pa/

He's glad to have waited until now to fully commit to an office project after considering a variety of other uses for the site in the years past.

"As it turned out, it may have felt like a long period of time. But in hindsight, the timing could not have worked out better,” he said, recalling initial plans to develop a small shopping center on the site. “If we had done what we had thought of doing in 2006, it would’ve greatly under-served the potential of the site."

[Jonboy1983]

Where in relation to St. Stanislaus Church is that proposal located? Is that going to be behind it or across the street from the church? I can't tell from that rendering on Rugby Realty's website.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

That Holy Family Church site has been quite the saga. Isn't that new proposal pretty close to the one that got killed by NIMBYs, except with condos instead of apartments?

I think so. Certainly the unit count is about the same. Though I think the configuration of units in the old school section is a bit different.

This sounds like it could be a win-win, provided it gets past NIMBYs this time, because there's no way if they demolished the building and built new-construction townhomes they would have fit 55+ homes on the parcel.

Originally Posted by Jonboy1983

Where in relation to St. Stanislaus Church is that proposal located? Is that going to be behind it or across the street from the church? I can't tell from that rendering on Rugby Realty's website.

Across from St. Stanislaus Church.

[BrianTH]

Definitely a much better project for the Holy Family site than townhouses--too bad for the delay but worth it to get a better project done (if that actually happens, of course).

I think filling in that lot across from Saint Stanislaus is really going to emphasize the European-city-square feel of that part of Smallman. It is a shame the older, more ambitious plans for Smallman got killed, but still in that part there will be a big pedestrian space in front of the church, and I think enclosing that corner will really complete the squarish vibe even with Smallman running through.

These renderings from August and recent work-in-progress shot (available at link) sort of get the idea across:






https://media.bizj.us/view/img/10985...2268-0-378.jpg

[eschaton]

Pittsburgh Business Times confirms what has been rumored already - the Millhaus project to replace the Bloomfield ShurSave is dead. The current owner of the property all but confirms that NIMBY demands (which included affordable housing and retention of a grocery store) killed the viability of Milhaus's option to buy the property.

The owner still plans to retire from operation of a grocery store with the sale of the property, making it pretty unlikely that a grocery store will remain there in the longer run. He has sour grapes about past city administrations - which subsidized other nearby groceries - causing him to lose business to competition, but to also now be hamstrung by demands in the community that his store remain open.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Pittsburgh Business Times confirms what has been rumored already - the Millhaus project to replace the Bloomfield ShurSave is dead. The current owner of the property all but confirms that NIMBY demands (which included affordable housing and retention of a grocery store) killed the viability of Milhaus's option to buy the property.

The owner still plans to retire from operation of a grocery store with the sale of the property, making it pretty unlikely that a grocery store will remain there in the longer run. He has sour grapes about past city administrations - which subsidized other nearby groceries - causing him to lose business to competition, but to also now be hamstrung by demands in the community that his store remain open.

There is a basic economic lesson here.

Affordable housing mandates can work because very often the marginal cost to the developer per unit is much lower than the average cost. Ordinarily they could not get away with charging some tenants much more than others, but if MANDATED to do that, then they can. In fact, under the right circumstances this could even be a good thing for them (what is called "price discrimination" can be good for total profitability, but in many cases is impractical or indeed illegal--but it is the basic reason why hardcover books come out before paperbacks, or why movies are released in theaters first, then DVD/on-demand, then premium-cable/streaming, then finally ad-supported media, and so on).

But the grocery business is a competitive commodity business, and therefore a low-margin business. And so mandating something like that may not only be an opportunity cost, it may actually be an ongoing operating loss (unless it happens to be an under-supplied market to begin with). And people will walk away from mandates like that.

[eschaton]

New planning commission presentation. Only two items this week, but both are very substantial:

1. A new apartment project (new to me anyway) is being proposed for Southside Works - Connection @ South Side. This is a six-story building with 280 units, a 187 stall garage on the first floor, and 60 surface parking spaces. 90% of the units will be market rate, 10% affordable. Location is here. The design is incredibly bleh and generic, but South Side Works has been seeming like a floundering/dead development, so this is welcome.

2. Oxford is out with their first information on Three Crossings 2.0. The first development appears to keep up some of the steel framework from the existing PCA building, and builds two new three-story, 55,000 square foot office buildings inside - similar to Mill 19, but on a smaller scale, and called The Stacks. However, they show their master plan for the entire site here. Later phases include three five-story office buildings by the river, an eight-story office building a bit further in, two five-story apartment buildings, and a second six-story garage. The development is going to be centered around a new plaza they are terming a "town square." The design of "The Stacks" themselves is kinda meh, but it's going to add needed density into a very dead portion of the Strip District.

[Urbanthusiat]

Connection at South Side Works



Nice density.


Three Crossings Phase II



Nothing special but new commercial space is almost always a good thing.

[eschaton]

I believe the Connection @ SSW building is being built on one of the four remaining building sites which have languished due to the developer not finding takers for office space (and being unwilling to build on spec).

It seems pretty clear to me that this is the way forward for South Side Works. It's no longer in demand as urban office park due to being eclipsed by the Strip, Bakery Square, and other parts of the East End. But apartment blocks being built there still seem to rent quite well. Indeed, all of the more recent development other than a hotel have been apartment based. With this plus the last three parcels along the river, South Side Flats could add another 1,500 residents, and probably get enough of a shot in the arm to help fill up the vacant retail space along S 27th Street.

[BrianTH]

I agree--more apartments seems like the way to go for South Side Works (maybe another hotel if the demand is there). It is still a great location for both Oakland and Downtown commuters (could be even better with an aerial gondola . . . ). Related local retail (probably mostly food and entertainment) would be good too. And projects with the level of density of those apartments are boring but in a good way--do that all over the river flats and we can add a very desirable amount of population density.

[BrianTH]

I don't necessarily love the aesthetics of 3 Crossings II, but the overall layout, density, and use of the plan is pretty sweet:



Similar Google 3D view:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4601.../data=!3m1!1e3

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

But the grocery business is a competitive commodity business, and therefore a low-margin business. And so mandating something like that may not only be an opportunity cost, it may actually be an ongoing operating loss (unless it happens to be an under-supplied market to begin with). And people will walk away from mandates like that.

The demand to keep the Bloomfield grocery store open never made much sense to me - particularly those who claimed Bloomfield is a "food desert." The Aldi on Penn Avenue has been open for a few years now. Bloomfield also has a greengrocer (Linea Verde), two Italian markets, and the Saturday farmer's market. There's also some groceries at the nearby Rite Aid, and a few little corner markets. East Liberty is a bit better for grocery shopping, but it's not that far away. And you can take the 54 to the Strip District. ShurSave is in no way essential to the neighborhood.