Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[MiEncanto]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I appreciate the response, but I'm still confused. Do think the 7s should or should not have dedicated left turn arrows? Either way, how is this linked to the reverse lanes? Even if the reverse lanes went away, there could still be left turn restrictions and dedicated arrows if appropriate.

I'm advocating for status quo with much better signage.

I don't think you can get rid of the 7's reverse lanes while keeping the existing long green light timing the same, or you get the situation I described above. The key is, if you have dedicated left turn arrows, it necessarily cuts into green light time.

I suppose they could try... and say 'we strongly recommend you don't try to turn left here because we're not granting a dedicated left turn lane' in order to clear intersections. But I doubt it would work.

[Prestige Worldwide]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

I'm advocating for status quo with much better signage.

I don't think you can get rid of the 7's reverse lanes while keeping the existing long green light timing the same, or you get the situation I described above. The key is, if you have dedicated left turn arrows, it necessarily cuts into green light time.

I suppose they could try... and say 'we strongly recommend you don't try to turn left here because we're not granting a dedicated left turn lane' in order to clear intersections. But I doubt it would work.

Why don't we just get rid of the 7th Avenue reverse lane and keep 7th Street for a period of time and evaluate? The 7th Ave reverse lane north of Camelback is pretty worthless anyways.

My two cents as a daily 7th Ave commuter - A traffic study hypothesizing the expected traffic optimization misses the on the ground reality. There's too much non-compliance by motorists, which makes the reverse lane dangerous, which causes it to be under utilized. That's what I see on a daily basis and I avoid using it because the chance of a head-on or glancing collision is too great. It's not safe.

[MiEncanto]

Originally Posted by Prestige Worldwide

Why don't we just get rid of the 7th Avenue reverse lane and keep 7th Street for a period of time and evaluate? The 7th Ave reverse lane north of Camelback is pretty worthless anyways.

My two cents as a daily 7th Ave commuter - A traffic study hypothesizing the expected traffic optimization misses the on the ground reality. There's too much non-compliance by motorists, which makes the reverse lane dangerous, which causes it to be under utilized. That's what I see on a daily basis and I avoid using it because the chance of a head-on or glancing collision is too great. It's not safe.

I actually find 7th Ave more effective than Street so I take it with far more regularity. There are thousands like me who use it to get to work. That's why I wouldn't want to see it go away. I agree that it is less necessary north of Bethany Home. But there's also almost no accidents up there.

I don't think the critique of "it's dangerous" or "people don't know the rules" lands much with me knowing how much better signage could be if there was a little effort.

With the knowledge that I-17 and 51 aren't going to be fixed anytime soon, we need a way for central Phx folks to get to work and school without chaos.

[Obadno]

Im not sure how helpful the reversable lanes truly are. Usually seems to result in somebody trying to turn left across three lanes of traffic and backing everything up

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Im not sure how helpful the reversable lanes truly are. Usually seems to result in somebody trying to turn left across three lanes of traffic and backing everything up

Exactly. Electronic signs are only going to do so much. There are many drivers that INTENTIONALLY do this. I've watched many drivers zip over and turn left at the major crossroads because they see an opening. Very dangerous driving behavior.

Also, the other aspect of this discussion is being missed. Businesses are getting hurt because of the inability/dangerous action of being able to turn left into them. Businesses should not have to suffer so that rush hour traffic can get to their office 10 mins faster than without a reversable lane. The reversable lanes can only make so much of dent in commute time. It's not worth it IMHO for the issues that they create.

[PHX31]

/\ You can turn left in to them most of the day, and even during the peak rush hour (except from one direction). Businesses aren't getting hurt with anything new they already didn't know about since these reversible lanes have been in use for so long.

[MiEncanto]

The business argument is lame. Drivers will seek to avoid those streets at rush hour if it is gridlock mayhem. There hasn't been one business owner on the 7s to publicly call for the elimination of the reverse lanes or explain how it hurts them.

And to say it's not helping because a few people are confused misses the obvious point: you're moving thousands of cars far more quickly than you otherwise would and there is data to prove that. Hence why the city always shuts this down.

Absolutely no one argues they are signed well. So why can't we try that before we try certain gridlock?

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

There hasn't been one business owner on the 7s to publicly call for the elimination of the reverse lanes or explain how it hurts them.

Actually, there’s at least one.

https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/co...ffic-lanes.amp

[Prestige Worldwide]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

how much better signage could be if there was a little effort.

Your dream of better signage will never materialize. I will admit, it could make things a little better, but my guess is that the City doesn't want to spend the money or assume the liability for a signage system. Just don't see it ever happening.

This is all about tradeoffs. For me, my commute would probably be 5-10 minutes longer (in the morning) without the reverse lane, but it would be much safer. I'm going with safer. Just want to add to this discussion a voice of someone who uses the lanes and is okay with them going away.

[halicem]

It's not part of my daily commute but use it at least twice a week. I'd defer to those who are daily commuters...

But imo, I think both roads should be re-imagined as it really is a stroad now. It was fine as a road back when there weren't as much destinations along it but with all the retail and neighborhoods, it's hard to go in/out of the stops with how wide and busy it is. And some of those retail egresses are alleyways that dump you on the street with blind corners!

I'd prefer to see it cut-down to 5 total lanes from the current 6: 2 lanes of travel each direction + a turning lane, and adding a protected bike lane (pipe dream is to cut another travel lane on each direction, for a total of 3, and give street parking on both sides but I'll probably get banned here lol).

This would come with a reduction in speed, and signal to drivers that this is a street that feeds businesses now, no longer a road to speed on to take you downtown/uptown. Add shade and trees along the sidewalk while we're at it please! There's a lot of patio potential on that street but most of the patios are closed off from the road (exactly cause of how busy and fast/loud cars are zipping by -- really obvious when sitting outside in Culinary Dropout for example).

Personally, I prefer Central to go between downtown/uptown. Especially with the additional signalized intersection on 7th st south of I-10, Central/1st Ave is easier/faster to get to/from downtown core.

Ps, it doesn't have to be a bike lane, as long as something cuts down the number of lanes and make the street less wide. It could be taken up by street parking on one side (probably the sides going uptown to promote stops going home). With how wide the road is, it doesn't matter how much signs and flashy lights there are when the design of the road itself is signaling to drivers that they can drive fast, so drivers will go as fast as they can. A smaller road tells drivers to hold up, don't go too fast. I mean it's probably why people don't like Central because it's only 2 travel lanes and it feels cramped with the train on your side but I find it a faster road for my purposes, especially when I get to ride with the train and get all its priority greens.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by halicem

It's not part of my daily commute but use it at least twice a week. I'd defer to those who are daily commuters...

But imo, I think both roads should be re-imagined as it really is a stroad now. It was fine as a road back when there weren't as much destinations along it but with all the retail and neighborhoods, it's hard to go in/out of the stops with how wide and busy it is. And some of those retail egresses are alleyways that dump you on the street with blind corners!

I'd prefer to see it cut-down to 5 total lanes from the current 6: 2 lanes of travel each direction + a turning lane, and adding a protected bike lane (pipe dream is to cut another travel lane on each direction, for a total of 3, and give street parking on both sides but I'll probably get banned here lol).

This would come with a reduction in speed, and signal to drivers that this is a street that feeds businesses now, no longer a road to speed on to take you downtown/uptown. Add shade and trees along the sidewalk while we're at it please! There's a lot of patio potential on that street but most of the patios are closed off from the road (exactly cause of how busy and fast/loud cars are zipping by -- really obvious when sitting outside in Culinary Dropout for example).

Personally, I prefer Central to go between downtown/uptown. Especially with the additional signalized intersection on 7th st south of I-10, Central/1st Ave is easier/faster to get to/from downtown core.

Ps, it doesn't have to be a bike lane, as long as something cuts down the number of lanes and make the street less wide. It could be taken up by street parking on one side (probably the sides going uptown to promote stops going home). With how wide the road is, it doesn't matter how much signs and flashy lights there are when the design of the road itself is signaling to drivers that they can drive fast, so drivers will go as fast as they can. A smaller road tells drivers to hold up, don't go too fast. I mean it's probably why people don't like Central because it's only 2 travel lanes and it feels cramped with the train on your side but I find it a faster road for my purposes, especially when I get to ride with the train and get all its priority greens.

Now we're talking. The only detail I'd change is to use the space freed by elimimating a lane for detached sidewalks. Half of the lane on each side of the street could be used for a landscaped buffer with trees for shade. The result would be a safer, more pleasant environment for both walking and driving to and from all the business on the 7s. Protected bike lanes are great, but the city is already doing good work with those just a quarter mile away on 3rd Avenue and 3rd Street. If hell freezes over and we actually went down to three lanes on the 7s, then I'd use the extra space for protected bike lanes, bus rapid transit, parallel parking, or some combination of the three.

[combusean]

I find it laughable that Phoenix, with some of the worst drivers in the nation and probably #1 in wrong way driving, will solve its reversible lane problem with better signage. I bet dollars to donuts that if Phoenix builds whatever better signage, people will feel more comfortable using the lanes and pay for a marginally shorter commute with their lives.

[DesertRay]

Originally Posted by combusean

I find it laughable that Phoenix, with some of the worst drivers in the nation and probably #1 in wrong way driving, will solve its reversible lane problem with better signage. I bet dollars to donuts that if Phoenix builds whatever better signage, people will feel more comfortable using the lanes and pay for a marginally shorter commute with their lives.

This is absolute truth. I'm a daily commuter that would benefit from 7th being functional. It's not just the suicide lane that is terrible--It's that nobody knows if they can take any left turn whatsoever. About 25% of people are a yes, and the other 75% think that the far left lane is a Fast and Furious turbo-boost lane. I take Grand Avenue instead--and that's basically Fury Road.

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by DesertRay

This is absolute truth. I'm a daily commuter that would benefit from 7th being functional. It's not just the suicide lane that is terrible--It's that nobody knows if they can take any left turn whatsoever. About 25% of people are a yes, and the other 75% think that the far left lane is a Fast and Furious turbo-boost lane. I take Grand Avenue instead--and that's basically Fury Road.

You’re absolutely right! Too many accidents and it’s worst! That’s big problem! They don’t know how to drive a car. It’s too dangerous! They cannot drive a car without a valid driver license. They cannot handle it without a family member.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Not sure if anyone has seen this, but MAG is currently conducting a survey on how to improve I-10 traffic through the downtown area. I encourage everyone to put in their input.

Link to MAG press release:
https://azmag.gov/Newsroom/News-Rele...-freeway-study

Direct link to survey:
https://magi10study.mysocialpinpoint.com/

[MiEncanto]

I really hope they can smartly re-engineer this area. I don't think total lanes is the issue for the most part, it's just there are so many people changing lanes in one area combined with a few lane reductions at choke points.

I think the 16th St EB exit should be abandoned for a slip ramp to the 202 EB exit, with a separate ramp for 51NB. That would be a massive relief on it's own.

It would be nice if the center lanes in the tunnel could provide some relief, perhaps a dedicated, restricted through lane in the direction of travel during peak congestion? Could be too complicated.

And of course, I feel terrible for the West siders who work in the EV who have to negotiate the 202 to 10 WB ramp, which is not big enough and creates a massive bottle neck.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by MiEncanto

I really hope they can smartly re-engineer this area. I don't think total lanes is the issue for the most part, it's just there are so many people changing lanes in one area combined with a few lane reductions at choke points.

I think the 16th St EB exit should be abandoned for a slip ramp to the 202 EB exit, with a separate ramp for 51NB. That would be a massive relief on it's own.

It would be nice if the center lanes in the tunnel could provide some relief, perhaps a dedicated, restricted through lane in the direction of travel during peak congestion? Could be too complicated.

And of course, I feel terrible for the West siders who work in the EV who have to negotiate the 202 to 10 WB ramp, which is not big enough and creates a massive bottle neck.

Agree completely. The tunnel and the mini-stack don't need widening. They just need better management of current lanes. I've always been amazed that so much lane changing is going on while people drive through a tunnel and adapt to changing light levels. It seems like a guarantee of congestion and collisions.

[N830MH]

Metro light rail to Metrocenter station extension to set open on January 27, 2024.

https://www.abc15.com/news/business/...uU5xTI_1W14N34

[exit2lef]

Valley Metro has released its revised plan for the Capitol light rail extension. The intention is to maintain the planned couplet of tracks on Washington and Jefferson but then have trains turn at 15th Avenue rather than 19th Avenue. This keeps them outside the forbidden zone created by the legislature, but it will mean a walk of several blocks between the actual Capitol and the nearest station.

In terms of next steps after that, they're looking at then using either Van Buren or Madison to reach 19th Avenue before continuing along the I-10 alignment to the west side of town. Although it's not stated and purely my own conjecture, I think this is a good move because it also leaves open the possibility of going back to the original plan if a better legislature is elected in 2024.

https://www.valleymetro.org/project/capitol-extension

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Valley Metro has released its revised plan for the Capitol light rail extension. The intention is to maintain the planned couplet of tracks on Washington and Jefferson but then have trains turn at 15th Avenue rather than 19th Avenue. This keeps them outside the forbidden zone created by the legislature, but it will mean a walk of several blocks between the actual Capitol and the nearest station.

In terms of next steps after that, they're looking at then using either Van Buren or Madison to reach 19th Avenue before continuing along the I-10 alignment to the west side of town. Although it's not stated and purely my own conjecture, I think this is a good move because it also leaves open the possibility of going back to the original plan if a better legislature is elected in 2024.

https://www.valleymetro.org/project/capitol-extension

I have agree with you. They will not go beyond on Washington St to State Capitol. Because the governor won't let go through. It's their choice and it's her decision. She did the right things to do. They will turnaround on 15th Ave right back to downtown Phoenix.

Thank you for the update. Keep us posted!