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  #781  
Old Posted May 11, 2016, 3:21 PM
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jakor21 jakor21 is offline
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Train or Bus?? The city is wanting to move forward with either one after an extensive study.

If a bus is chosen (not super specific on expanding the current system, which we need, or creating a new bus circulator), thus if it's just a bus circulator, what is the difference between just adding a new route? Seems like the same thing, somewhat like a glorified bus route.. whats the point?

A light rail route would be a more long term attractive urban investment which would have a much greater national impact on the city versus just adding a new bus route. That would be more interesting, and which option would be more likely to attract ridership?

What do you think?

I think expanding the current system and route times, and creating new routes and purchasing new vehicles would be the most logical and needed. But if it comes down to deciding on a bus circulator or a light rail circulator, then obviously the light rail option makes more long term sense.

Here is the link.

http://www.idahostatesman.com/news/l...e76853502.html
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  #782  
Old Posted May 11, 2016, 3:42 PM
Saturnfromboise Saturnfromboise is offline
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Light rail is the better way to go. True it would be more expensive, but also i think people would ride it more. Not to mention trains don't have to adhere to most normal traffic which buses do. So there's that. I guess im saying id much rather ride a train and get there faster then sit on a bus in traffic.
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  #783  
Old Posted May 11, 2016, 6:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakor21 View Post
If a bus is chosen (not super specific on expanding the current system, which we need, or creating a new bus circulator), thus if it's just a bus circulator, what is the difference between just adding a new route? Seems like the same thing, somewhat like a glorified bus route.. whats the point?
Just guessing here, but the difference might be that the bus would on an electrified route, via suspended wire like in many larger cities. I know that a number of the more circulator-y routes in downtown Vancouver, for example, are electrified. In addition, the bus could even be an articulated model, so the full system would be doing basically everything except running on rails.

I ride on internal combustion as well as electric busses all the time when I'm living up there, and the experience is much nicer on the latter.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that after all this, I too am in favor of a light rail transit option for Boise
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  #784  
Old Posted May 11, 2016, 7:14 PM
OhGoodGlavin OhGoodGlavin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakor21 View Post
Train or Bus?? The city is wanting to move forward with either one after an extensive study.

If a bus is chosen (not super specific on expanding the current system, which we need, or creating a new bus circulator), thus if it's just a bus circulator, what is the difference between just adding a new route? Seems like the same thing, somewhat like a glorified bus route.. whats the point?
I've spoken with a few planning colleagues and that's the problem with many "Bus Rapid Transit" routes. There's no permanence of needing to actually put in a train station. So you wind up in a perilous development cycle... developers don't want to invest in the vicinity of BRT "nodes" until the ridership shows up. Ridership is predicated on developers investing and taking risks on novel ways to live within walking distance of BRT nodes.

Go to any city with a significant subway system and you'll find property scales with walking distance to the nearest subway stop... particularly in places with harsh winters.

I do think that any rail-based "circulator" needs to be scalable... it has to be pitched as the beginning of a phased investment in rail that will evolve with the city and not a one-off novelty.
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  #785  
Old Posted May 11, 2016, 10:00 PM
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until there's local option tax... there's no way we will see rail in boise
it sucks...
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  #786  
Old Posted May 11, 2016, 10:39 PM
boisenative boisenative is offline
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My 2 cents on the issue is that while the idea of a light rail circulator is nice and would likely bring more economic development and growth throughout downtown, the plan as it is is almost entirely worthless. Unless there is connectivity to the airport and then some sort of route going out to Caldwell/Nampa, I can't see light rail being worth the money. If Mayor Beiter can sell it, however, as just the first stage of many that would include said connections, then it is something that I can get behind. It is always better to plan ahead for growth and congestion than waiting for it to get unbearable.

On another note, I will FINALLY be moving back to Boise on Saturday (from Moscow) and will hopefully be able to make the rounds (along with Sawtooth and Architecture Buff) and add some pictures to the discussion.
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  #787  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 12:43 AM
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boisecynic boisecynic is offline
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In case you missed my research on the topic the first time, here it is again.

Just throwing this out there. Where will Boise's streetcars be stored when not in use and where will they be maintained?

Here's one of SLC's rail maintenance facilites, a 200,000 sf warehouse on a 24 acre site: (Jordan River Service Center) http://goo.gl/maps/Yo0Df



Source: http://www.stacywitbeck.com/projects...ervice-center/

Here's another. The Lovendahl facility in Midvale: http://goo.gl/maps/RCMIr



For what it's worth, it took a long time to track down the locations of these facilities. Seems that all the fancy Trax and UTA websites don't mention much about big industrial rail yards. Even the wikipedia articles barely mention the maintenance yards.

Found another one, the Warm Springs Service Center for Frontrunner: http://goo.gl/maps/OnF7v

To be fair, SLC's system is much much bigger than Boise's proposal. So apples to apples would be Little Rock. Here's Little Rock's 3 car system maintenance barn.



On google maps: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7592...!3m1!1e3?hl=en

Not a big fan of the overhead wires.
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  #788  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boisecynic View Post
In case you missed my research on the topic the first time, here it is again.

Just throwing this out there. Where will Boise's streetcars be stored when not in use and where will they be maintained?

Here's one of SLC's rail maintenance facilites, a 200,000 sf warehouse on a 24 acre site: (Jordan River Service Center) http://goo.gl/maps/Yo0Df



Source: http://www.stacywitbeck.com/projects...ervice-center/

Here's another. The Lovendahl facility in Midvale: http://goo.gl/maps/RCMIr



For what it's worth, it took a long time to track down the locations of these facilities. Seems that all the fancy Trax and UTA websites don't mention much about big industrial rail yards. Even the wikipedia articles barely mention the maintenance yards.

Found another one, the Warm Springs Service Center for Frontrunner: http://goo.gl/maps/OnF7v

To be fair, SLC's system is much much bigger than Boise's proposal. So apples to apples would be Little Rock. Here's Little Rock's 3 car system maintenance barn.



On google maps: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7592...!3m1!1e3?hl=en

Not a big fan of the overhead wires.
there's plenty of room for such a facility on the east side of the airport on the east OR west side of the freeway... that is if the proposal has an airport link
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  #789  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 1:17 AM
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boisecynic boisecynic is offline
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Here's a well sourced article out of Minneapolis:

https://www.minnpost.com/politics-po...transit-option
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  #790  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 1:26 AM
TVurban TVurban is offline
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The proposal for Boise sounds more like a streetcar system than light rail, which is typically smaller, like the Little Rock barn shown or the Portland facility.

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5307...7i13312!8i6656

Portland's facility fits in two typical blocks (200'x 200'). Seattle's is also fairly compact:

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  #791  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 2:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVurban View Post
The proposal for Boise sounds more like a streetcar system than light rail, which is typically smaller, like the Little Rock barn shown or the Portland facility.

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5307...7i13312!8i6656

Portland's facility fits in two typical blocks (200'x 200'). Seattle's is also fairly compact:

If a street car is built it has to loop to Hyde Park up 13th like the original historic route. 24th Street also had a trolley track which is why it's a little wider compared to other Northend streets.
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  #792  
Old Posted May 13, 2016, 12:27 AM
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s.p.hansen s.p.hansen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boisecynic View Post
In case you missed my research on the topic the first time, here it is again.

Just throwing this out there. Where will Boise's streetcars be stored when not in use and where will they be maintained?

Here's one of SLC's rail maintenance facilites, a 200,000 sf warehouse on a 24 acre site: (Jordan River Service Center) http://goo.gl/maps/Yo0Df



Source: http://www.stacywitbeck.com/projects...ervice-center/

Here's another. The Lovendahl facility in Midvale: http://goo.gl/maps/RCMIr



For what it's worth, it took a long time to track down the locations of these facilities. Seems that all the fancy Trax and UTA websites don't mention much about big industrial rail yards. Even the wikipedia articles barely mention the maintenance yards.

Found another one, the Warm Springs Service Center for Frontrunner: http://goo.gl/maps/OnF7v

To be fair, SLC's system is much much bigger than Boise's proposal. So apples to apples would be Little Rock. Here's Little Rock's 3 car system maintenance barn.



On google maps: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7592...!3m1!1e3?hl=en

Not a big fan of the overhead wires.

Boise should totally do light rail! There is context for streetcars in the past you have a nice compact downtown that you could easily connect to your University and Airport.

That first facility you referenced in Utah was just a warehouse UTA bought from ZCMI which they gutted and remodeled into a maintenance facility. Most cities have empty warehouses of this size near their freight lines. I'm sure Boise could easily do the same.

The extremely nice Warm Springs Facility for the FrontRunner commuter train that you also referenced in your post was an abandoned Union Pacific freight maintenance facility that they bought for cheap.

And finally, I hate to burst your bubble but busses need storage and maintainence too and this is the latest proposed building reuse in Salt Lake City to accommodate all the buses.





Last edited by s.p.hansen; May 13, 2016 at 12:55 AM.
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  #793  
Old Posted May 13, 2016, 2:26 AM
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boisecynic boisecynic is offline
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Originally Posted by s.p.hansen View Post

And finally, I hate to burst your bubble but busses need storage and maintainence too and this is the latest proposed building reuse in Salt Lake City to accommodate all the buses.
I think you're missing some local context.

Last edited by boisecynic; May 13, 2016 at 3:16 AM.
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  #794  
Old Posted May 13, 2016, 3:18 AM
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s.p.hansen s.p.hansen is offline
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Originally Posted by boisecynic View Post
I think you're missing some local context. In fact I'm sure of it. The most likely place for a streetcar facility in Boise is the west side of downtown. A long ignored part of town yet full of potential. The area has been ignored because it's easy to ignore the poor in the poor part of town, they can't afford lawyers to fight ugly industrial uses. Let's cram all the homeless in that part of town too. The impotent and fractured neighborhood association won't do anything nor could they even if they cared.

Much of the area has been recently been made a Urban Renewal District. The most expensive property has been bought by a tax exempt community college. A few more large properties are available but it's looking more and more like they'll be eaten up by a tax exempt streetcar barn and a tax exempt minor league baseball stadium. Goodbye $millions in tax increment financing for neighborhood improvements.

The very reason the area has suffered from decades of disinvestment was the absentee landlords and their use it, abuse it and take the profits with them while leaving their toxic waste behind modus operandi.
Yeah, I'm totally guilty of having zero local perspective when it comes to Boise, but you're guilty of thinking local means that your will for the district in question is the will of the "poor". In urban planning language it's usually called "working class." I'm sure the industries that once occupied that area helped a lot of working class people in Idaho get their slice of the American Dream. Remaking a neighborhood into a real diverse community means mixed uses and mixed use doesn't just mean retailing the bejesus out of every ground floor of every new apartment building or warehouse being converted into lofts. It means creating a community that has everything close by and creating a diverse offering of jobs and thus creating a robust local economy that isn't so dependent on commuting.

Using some of these old warehouses for a UPS distribution center or a light rail or bus maintenance facility brings working class jobs to that location. It means that many people without college degrees can get good paying jobs in the city. Now consider that Boise has a University and a White Collar downtown core and I think this helps balance out the city.

Next, really what are these transit structures? They're giant storage facilities, mechanic shops, and detailing facilities. This isn't polluting or heavy industrial. No steel is being made. So lets keep our categories realistic. If you guys get with the program and put in a light rail system people are going to be able to commute downtown with more options and the light rail creates no exhaust.

So here's my prognosis, the "poor" would do well to ignore your NIMBY gentrifer musings. I think Bozeman, Montana would be more your speed. It's super white, skewed toward people with 4 year degrees, and full of granola places and places to hike.
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  #795  
Old Posted May 13, 2016, 3:43 AM
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I'm generally skeptical of streetcar systems for a variety of reasons but I'll note that Boise is probably better-sized for a streetcar network than a true light-rail network. The city is quite small, both in terms of population and land area, which lends itself well to short routes to key destinations.

I could see something like this being a useful Boise rail network.
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  #796  
Old Posted May 13, 2016, 4:16 AM
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Sawtooth Sawtooth is offline
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I like the idea of a downtown route which could be the starting point for a city and valley wide system. There are a lot of people who commute into Boise from Nampa/Caldwell and Meridian.

The Treasure Valley used to have the Interurban which served the valley from Boise to Caldwell.

http://www.thewebfooters.com/html/Bo...Streetcars.pdf

http://www.boiseartsandhistory.org/b...urban-railway/

The link
http://www.lightrailnow.org/images02...tcard-Club.jpg



The original townsite of Ustick was a stop along the Interurban.
I posted this in my fall thread:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...77&postcount=9
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Have you also learned that secret from the river; that there is no such thing as time? That the river is everywhere at the same time, at the source and at the mouth, at the waterfall, at the ferry, at the current, in the ocean and in the mountains.-Hermann Hesse
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  #797  
Old Posted May 13, 2016, 4:31 AM
boisenative boisenative is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
I'm generally skeptical of streetcar systems for a variety of reasons but I'll note that Boise is probably better-sized for a streetcar network than a true light-rail network. The city is quite small, both in terms of population and land area, which lends itself well to short routes to key destinations.

I could see something like this being a useful Boise rail network.
It seems like all this 'circulator' talk is bringing in lots of great insight. Those routes you drew seem like a great end game. If something like that is what the Mayor has in store, I think it will be much easier for the general public to get behind than what is currently proposed.
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  #798  
Old Posted May 13, 2016, 4:05 PM
Architecture Buff Architecture Buff is offline
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Here is some info on the Portland, Oregon transit system considered one of the best in the country.
Regional population in 2014: 2,348,247

Boise regional est. in 2013: 650,288

http://trimet.org/
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  #799  
Old Posted May 13, 2016, 4:29 PM
Cottonwood Cottonwood is offline
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Current population estimates are in the census thread:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...=198667&page=2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boizean View Post
First time I've seen Boise considered in a Combined Statistical Area.

756,061 (2015) Boise City-Mountain Home-Ontario, ID-OR CSA



Coeur d'Alene and Idaho Falls.

698,170 (2015) Spokane-Spokane Valley-Coeur d'Alene, WA-ID CSA
235,829 (2015) Idaho Falls-Rexburg-Blackfoot, ID CSA



Annual Estimates of the Resident Population: April 1, 2010 to July 1, 2015
Source: U.S. Census Bureau, Population Division
Release Date: March 2016

https://www.census.gov/popest/data/m...015/index.html
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  #800  
Old Posted May 13, 2016, 5:20 PM
Cottonwood Cottonwood is offline
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Great discussion going on. Let's keep it friendly and not act like the miserable half dozen or so who participate at a silly dumbed down blog in town who like to refer to "the mayors choo choo".

Informed, educated and friendly discussion is what sets SSP apart from the rest.



and the source: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-v4JVMULYvy...4975069140.png

Last edited by Cottonwood; May 13, 2016 at 5:32 PM.
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