Does an Anglo-Canadian become more Canadian by learning French?

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Yes, misinformation abounds. I suppose people say similar things about some Scottish accents, but those folks are speaking English (or at least that's their story and they're sticking to it!).

Well, in fairness, many linguists argue that those Scottish accents aren't actually English, but rather they're actually an entirely separate language called Scots. If closely related languages like Czech/Slovak and Danish/Norwergian are regarded as separate languages, it's hard to argue that Scots isn't a language, too.

There's a Wikipedia in the Scots language. Here's the opening paragraph of the article for Scotland:

Scotland is a kintra in nor-wast Europe, an is ane o the fower kintras that maks the Unitit Kinrick. It taks up the northren thrid o the Breetish island. Scotland haes til its sooth the laund o Ingland, an is bund bi the German Ocean til the eist an the Atlantic Ocean til the north an wast.

It aforetyms wis a free kinrik, but than Scotland gaed intil a union wi Ingland in 1603, whan Jeams VI o Scotland becam Jeams I o Ingland eftir the daith o Elspeth I. This union wis makkit formal on 1 Mey 1707 bi the Treatie o Union. The Scots Pairlament wis gotten rid o on 26 Mairch. The union southert baith kinriks, makkin the Kinrick o Great Breetain, wi a new singil Pairlament haudden in Wastmeinster, Lunnon, but sum pairts o Scotland's institutions, merkit the laund's naitional kirk an skuilin an legal seistems, wis hauden apairt. In 1801, Scotland becam ane o the thrie launds o the Unitit Kinrick, alang wi Ingland an Ireland (nou juist Northren Ireland). Wales is nou seen for uisal as anither laund, awtho it wis juist a principalitie o the kinrik o Ingland in 1707.

https://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland

[Hali87]

Quebec French is probably less different from Parisian French than the differences that exist between English dialects just within Canada (say between Toronto English and some of the rural Newfoundland dialects). There are distict Quebec accents (the way things are pronounced and the intonation can be different than in France but there are wide variations just within Quebec and within France as well) and there are minor differences in the vernacular but I'd say about 90% of commonly used words are exactly the same and excluding slang and maybe some obscure tech buzzwords the rest would be mutually intelligible. This isn't really any different than UK vs Canadian English. A counter-example is that in both France and Quebec the number "90" would be expressed as quatre-vingts-dix while in Belgium apparently they say nonante (ironically in Belgium 80 is still quatre-vingts though 70 is septante).

I've heard the "Quebec French isn't Real French" thing before but usually either in jest or from people who were pretentious in general. Sort of the same way someone might say "California wine isn't real wine".

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A relative of mine once taught FSL to adults in ROCer-land. Invariably at the start of every session someone would ask "Are we going to be learning Quebec French or real French?"

Since this person is Franco-Ontarian, the answer was always: "You'll be learning Canadian French which is totally *real* French. And if by chance any of you ever get good enough at it, you'll be just as fine getting by in Paris as you will in Montreal".

Canadian French isn't real French in the same way that Canadian English isn't real English, or so one could argue, probably successfully.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Architype

Canadian French isn't real French in the same way that Canadian English isn't real English, or so one could argue, probably successfully.

Not sure what you mean but this, but really I am more puzzled by why so many of you guys care.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not sure what you mean but this, but really I am more puzzled by why so many of you guys care.

....because it's the internet and being pedantic is a thing?



It's the same bloody language if you use the same words, aside from some slang. The accent might be different, the spellings might be different, but if you can communicate with someone this way, you're speaking the same language.

Quebec French is French.
Canadian English is English.
Brazilian Portuguese is Portuguese.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Well, in fairness, many linguists argue that those Scottish accents aren't actually English, but rather they're actually an entirely separate language called Scots. If closely related languages like Czech/Slovak and Danish/Norwergian are regarded as separate languages, it's hard to argue that Scots isn't a language, too.

There's a Wikipedia in the Scots language. Here's the opening paragraph of the article for Scotland:



https://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland

"Scots" and Scottish accented English are two very different creatures. Scots is indeed a language.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by wave46

....because it's the internet and being pedantic is a thing?



It's the same bloody language if you use the same words, aside from some slang. The accent might be different, the spellings might be different, but if you can communicate with someone this way, you're speaking the same language.

Quebec French is French.
Canadian English is English.
Brazilian Portuguese is Portuguese.

Yeah, but it isn't REAL Portuguese .....

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by wave46

....because it's the internet and being pedantic is a thing?



It's the same bloody language if you use the same words, aside from some slang. The accent might be different, the spellings might be different, but if you can communicate with someone this way, you're speaking the same language.

Quebec French is French.
Canadian English is English.
Brazilian Portuguese is Portuguese.

Some pronunciations can be really different though, i.e. Champlain*. Also doesn’t FrAnK have a thread for French already???

* I’m the minority here, but if someone says Champlain the French way, it hurts my ears so much that I’m just gonna say “Okay j’ai rien compris. (I have no idea what the hell you’re saying.)” (Technically it’s “Je n’ai rien compris” but you know we drop the ne or n’ anyway. Man I love learning French from watching standup comedy shows.)

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not sure what you mean but this, but really I am more puzzled by why so many of you guys care.

I think it's an easily digestible little nugget of information that people flatter themselves with by showing off that they're privy to insider knowledge that the average rube doesn't know (i.e. "not all French is the same, you know--what they speak in Quebec is different from what they speak in France").

I get this all the time when people learn I speak Chinese. "Mandarin?" they ask by way of clarification, being aware that there are different Chinese dialects and wishing to let on that I need not dumb things down for them by simply saying "Chinese."

Thing is, it would be the rare non-Chinese person who only spoke a dialect like Cantonese or Hakka or what have you. Learning Chinese means learning Mandarin, the lingua franca for well over a billion people, so the word "Chinese" ably and satisfactorily stands in for Mandarin. Which, ironically enough, is in Chinese a very old-fashioned way of referring to Mandarin that nobody uses anymore. The term in Chinese for Mandarin that everyone uses nowadays literally translates as "Common Speech" or "Common Language." In English the more academic way of referring to it is "Standard Chinese."

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Quebec French is probably less different from Parisian French than the differences that exist between English dialects just within Canada (say between Toronto English and some of the rural Newfoundland dialects). There are distict Quebec accents (the way things are pronounced and the intonation can be different than in France but there are wide variations just within Quebec and within France as well) and there are minor differences in the vernacular but I'd say about 90% of commonly used words are exactly the same and excluding slang and maybe some obscure tech buzzwords the rest would be mutually intelligible. This isn't really any different than UK vs Canadian English. A counter-example is that in both France and Quebec the number "90" would be expressed as quatre-vingts-dix while in Belgium apparently they say nonante (ironically in Belgium 80 is still quatre-vingts though 70 is septante).

I've heard the "Quebec French isn't Real French" thing before but usually either in jest or from people who were pretentious in general. Sort of the same way someone might say "California wine isn't real wine".

IIRC 80 is "octante" in Switzerland, but not Belgium. Which is probably what you meant.

[lio45]

I'm nearly perfectly bilingual (you guys be the judges of my ESL) yet don't think I'm very "Canadian". Haven't seen much of Canada outside Quebec nor have I had much exposure to Anglo-Canadian culture. (Not that I don't want to, it just happened that way.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I think it's an easily digestible little nugget of information that people flatter themselves with by showing off that they're privy to insider knowledge that the average rube doesn't know (i.e. "not all French is the same, you know--what they speak in Quebec is different from what they speak in France").

I get this all the time when people learn I speak Chinese. "Mandarin?" they ask by way of clarification, being aware that there are different Chinese dialects and wishing to let on that I need not dumb things down for them by simply saying "Chinese."

Thing is, it would be the rare non-Chinese person who only spoke a dialect like Cantonese or Hakka or what have you. Learning Chinese means learning Mandarin, the lingua franca for well over a billion people, so the word "Chinese" ably and satisfactorily stands in for Mandarin. Which, ironically enough, is in Chinese a very old-fashioned way of referring to Mandarin that nobody uses anymore. The term in Chinese for Mandarin that everyone uses nowadays literally translates as "Common Speech" or "Common Language." In English the more academic way of referring to it is "Standard Chinese."

I would say that for half of you guys it is curiosity - so similar to what you are saying.

For the other half, it is more about "deligitimization".

[wave46]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I think it's an easily digestible little nugget of information that people flatter themselves with by showing off that they're privy to insider knowledge that the average rube doesn't know (i.e. "not all French is the same, you know--what they speak in Quebec is different from what they speak in France").

I get this all the time when people learn I speak Chinese. "Mandarin?" they ask by way of clarification, being aware that there are different Chinese dialects and wishing to let on that I need not dumb things down for them by simply saying "Chinese."

Thing is, it would be the rare non-Chinese person who only spoke a dialect like Cantonese or Hakka or what have you. Learning Chinese means learning Mandarin, the lingua franca for well over a billion people, so the word "Chinese" ably and satisfactorily stands in for Mandarin. Which, ironically enough, is in Chinese a very old-fashioned way of referring to Mandarin that nobody uses anymore. The term in Chinese for Mandarin that everyone uses nowadays literally translates as "Common Speech" or "Common Language." In English the more academic way of referring to it is "Standard Chinese."

I might be showing off here as per your judgement - but if I'm not mistaken, Chinese in Canada could very well mean either Mandarin or Cantonese depending on the person's origins. We have a lot of Hong Kong Chinese in this country, so there is more than a fair chance that one could mean the wrong 'Chinese', at least in a Canadian context.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by lio45

I'm nearly perfectly bilingual (you guys be the judges of my ESL) yet don't think I'm very "Canadian". Haven't seen much of Canada outside Quebec nor have I had much exposure to Anglo-Canadian culture. (Not that I don't want to, it just happened that way.)

You've been to America, so I doubt you'd really notice much of a difference between us and them - all the wrangling on this discussion board notwithstanding.

Until you mistook one of us for them.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I would say that for half of you guys it is curiosity - so similar to what you are saying.

For the other half, it is more about "deligitimization".

Lol isn’t that the case for just about any topic?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I would say that for half of you guys it is curiosity - so similar to what you are saying.

For the other half, it is more about "deligitimization".

Bingo.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Lol isn’t that the case for just about any topic?

With deligitimization?

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

With deligitimization?

Some ask out of curiosity and wanna know more; some ask to discredit.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Architype

Canadian French isn't real French in the same way that Canadian English isn't real English, or so one could argue, probably successfully.

I'm sure the establishment in France have that mindset but it's beyond nauseating. One type of French isn't superior or 'real' as you put it. They're just different. It reminds me of Brits who'd argue with authority that I was pronouncing certain words incorrectly. There's a common mindset in the UK, equally nauseating, that they speak proper English and everything that doesn't conform is inferior or not correct.

The last thing we need is Canadians aping that rubbish. Canada is no longer a colony. We can speak English and French any way we see fit.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by wave46

You've been to America, so I doubt you'd really notice much of a difference between us and them - all the wrangling on this discussion board notwithstanding.

Until you mistook one of us for them.

Anglo-Canadian culture is completely different from standard white American culture (of which there are regional variants, none similar to Canadian).

I thought I had the US all figured out until I actually moved there.