Does Western Alienation exist, and how can we fix it?

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It's never too late for a change.

There will always be a need for bilingual employees in the federal civil service for it to remain functional, but I think it would be beneficial for both linguistic communities to have "safe spaces" where they can feel comfortable.

A quadrilingual country like Switzerland can offer us a lesson in terms of remaining unified, but in a manner in which each linguistic group can feel secure and safe. We should emulate the Swiss example.

It’s always easier with 3 or more languages. The groups can make different alliances depending on the circumstances; it’s not one against another like a sports game or domestic dispute.

Other countries that have just 2 official languages are even more divided than us.

[hipster duck]

Also, many Swiss now just resort to speaking English with one another when they cross the country. Canton Zurich (German-speaking) recently decided to make English the first foreign language kids are exposed to in school, rather than French. The power of the English language hegemony is strong. If German speakers in Zurich can’t be bothered to learn French, even if they’re a 2 hour train ride away from their French-speaking counterparts (not to mention 60 million French speakers in nearby France), what hope is there to expect kids in Nanaimo to be fluent in French?

[flar]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The most Ontarioan post ever!

I was only half joking too

[ericmacm]

I believe one of the other large aspects of alienation is the population density disconnect between Ontario and Manitoba, which effectively turns Canada's 2 main population corridors into islands. The length of the disconnect between Toronto and Winnipeg is longer than the entire Windsor-Quebec corridor. It makes travel between the two areas more of an endeavour than it needs to be, and creates an actual physical rift between the east and west. The empty area that exists in northern Ontario between Sault Ste. Marie and Winnipeg could definitely benefit from a couple more cities with the population of >200,000 or so, along with growing existing population centres up north to create another population corridor that connects the east and west along the northern Great Lakes.

There are fairly obvious issues with attempting to grow Ontario's north this way, including issues with retention of population, climate, general lack of arable land, and economics. It's also questionable to assume that growing Ontario's north will help with western alienation. However, I would say that Northern Ontario has a lot more in common with the interior provinces, as opposed to highly-developed southern Ontario. Focusing on improving population growth in this area could further raise the ability for these issues to be represented at a federal level, while also creating a stronger physical connection between the two halves of the country, blurring the lines between east and west somewhat.

[headhorse]

yeah I think it’s less of a problem of alienation and more of an issue of regionalism. the west also had different settlement patterns than Canada (more e Europeans) who were often abused by the wasp majority when they arrived. honestly I do think the three prairie province/numbered treaty territories should argue for autonomy based on this. we’re the hinterland for the cosmopolitan cities of Canada who have to deal with lack of drinking water in First Nations, no public transit between cities, and massive drug and health issues related to the federal governments relationship to FN’s.

[hipster duck]

^That’s not a bad idea, and I’d give you guys support from Ontario if that’s the route you decide to go. But how much are the issues that you just cited at the top of mind among the majority of people in the 3 Prairie provinces?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Also, many Swiss now just resort to speaking English with one another when they cross the country. Canton Zurich (German-speaking) recently decided to make English the first foreign language kids are exposed to in school, rather than French. The power of the English language hegemony is strong. If German speakers in Zurich can’t be bothered to learn French, even if they’re a 2 hour train ride away from their French-speaking counterparts (not to mention 60 million French speakers in nearby France), what hope is there to expect kids in Nanaimo to be fluent in French?

The situation in Canada is also compounded by the fact that while English is for all intents and purposes an untouchable powerhouse language, French is still powerful enough both regionally in Canada and also globally, to give it a bit of a run for its money.

Most other languages within the context of Canada would have become moribund and bowed out to English way more than French has.

So if you look at most multilingual countries they are either more equal in relative power (Switzerland) and there is more of an equilibrium, or there is an imbalance (Spain) and as a result the minority languages have been eroded quite a bit and the degree of bitterness is quite high.

Canada lies somewhere in the middle.

Just as an example yesterday I was listening to a report on the 30th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall, and pretty much every German person commenting on the events (all of them Germans) was interviewed in French. I don't think you could pull that off in Catalan, or even in Swedish which unlike Quebec is an independent nation-state with its own language as the sole official language.

Many thousands of newcomers arrive in Quebec every year with knowledge of French (and not all of them from France) without us having to lift a finger to teach it to them. That's almost never the case in Barcelona or even Stockholm.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Just as an example yesterday I was listening to a report on the 30th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall, and pretty much every German person commenting on the events (all of them Germans) was interviewed in French. I don't think you could pull that off in Catalan, or even in Swedish which unlike Quebec is an independent nation-state with its own language as the sole official language.

Many thousands of newcomers arrive in Quebec every year with knowledge of French (and not all of them from France) without us having to lift a finger to teach it to them. That's almost never the case in Barcelona or even Stockholm.

French is one of the most powerful languages in the world, but I wouldn’t read too much into Germans speaking it to a high level of fluency. Germans are unique. For many years after the Second World War, traveling outside of Germany and speaking German would have been disgraceful, so they learned to speak even a few words of the foreign languages of the countries they frequented. So that would have been French to travel to France and English (and 100 words of Italian or Spanish) for everywhere else.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

It is a simple question, but not easily answered.

If for a moment we move past pipelines, and just talk about the Federal government presence in Western Canada, do we see the same as place like Ontario and Quebec, and even the Maritimes?

To answer this we need to look at some interesting examples.

.........

Building a pipeline really won't change things.

We need to start building our nation before it splinters beyond repair.

If you want the answer to Western Alienation, listen to this segment from CTVs Question Period. Evan Solomon nails it at the end.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=1825815


Quatro starts off by saying the Liberal govt needs to listen to Alberta and Saskatchewan to find out how to do better. Evan Solomon then lists out three key demands and Quatro responds that they will not change Liberal platform direction or policies. That's the source of the alienation right there, the inability of Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver to comprehend that what works for them doesn't work for everyone. Economic development, fiscal policy, social policy, taxation, climate change, etc. are all at odds from GTA/GVRD/MUC vs RoC.

[casper]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

To quote my long standing SSP bro ... money talks bullshit walks.

A fair and balanced distribution of national wealth is all that is needed. This is related to party politics focus of maintaining power than doing what's best for the nation.

Bilingualism sets the stage of government employment. It shouldn't be a prerequisite for government employment as it favour parts of the nation over others which forms government choices and decisions.

Canadians have to stop being ignorant assholes. The oil sands/ resource extraction runs our nation (aside from the banana republic real estate market) and, recycling isn't green. Reduce and reuse is.

Billingualism is not a prerequisite most entry level position in the federal government in Canada. That is made out to be a bigger issue than it is.

Non-renewal resources including oil sands are still a far bigger part of our economy than they should be. That does not mean we should try to shutdown or stop non-renewable. We should let them follow there logical course but at the same time understand that the communities we build around them will need something else when they are depleted and start building whatever is the new economy in each of these regions.

Fort MacMurray needs a small university with a business incubator. That is part of building a diversified industry. The same could be said for a lot of other communities in the country.

[Razor]

Western Alienation is more of a thing when Alberta's cyclical one horse economy tanks like clockwork. and some of the drunken sailors haven't saved their money or realize that they have to upgrade their skill set behond grade 10 education and rigging and the province itself needs to diversify. Here's my tiny violin for some of the boosters on here rubbing in all the awesomeness Alberta is, while Ontarians were losing their manufacturing jobs left and right.That. or celebrating how wonderful the weather was when Ontario was in a midst of a record crippling blizzard.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

French is one of the most powerful languages in the world, but I wouldn’t read too much into Germans speaking it to a high level of fluency. Germans are unique. For many years after the Second World War, traveling outside of Germany and speaking German would have been disgraceful, so they learned to speak even a few words of the foreign languages of the countries they frequented. So that would have been French to travel to France and English (and 100 words of Italian or Spanish) for everywhere else.

It is not just Germans though. That was just an easy top of mind example from the past 24 hours.

[JHikka]

We fix it the same way we fix every other problem in this country - ignore it and hope it solves itself.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

We fix it the same way we fix every other problem in this country - ignore it and hope it solves itself.

I agree in the sense that the current western frustration will gradually become less acute with time, but this country really needs to seriously get on with the business of nation building if it wants to survive for the long term.

We need nation building projects to help strengthen the ties that bind. In particular, we need to get serious on improving the connectivity of the east and the west, including a complete revamp of the national rail system and a serious improvement in the national highway system. Whether you like Scheer or not, I think his idea of having a national utilities corridor from coast to coast is a really good one.

In addition to these acts of nation building, the government really needs to stop pandering to every aggrieved minority and region in the country. Everyone should be encouraged to be proud to be citizens of this country, and to celebrate this country's accomplishments, whether they be scientific, military, economic, athletic or artistic. This may seem jingoistic, but I think this is important, and should become a primary part of the mandate of the CBC. This would help to create loyalty to the country, rather than loyalty to one's province, region, linguistic community, ethnicity or religion.

We are all Canadians. We are not nearly nationalistic enough. Without a deep commitment to our national identity, there will only be trouble in the future.

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by Razor

Western Alienation is more of a thing when Alberta's cyclical one horse economy tanks like clockwork. and some of the drunken sailors haven't saved their money or realize that they have to upgrade their skill set behond grade 10 education and rigging and the province itself needs to diversify. Here's my tiny violin for some of the boosters on here rubbing in all the awesomeness Alberta is, while Ontarians were losing their manufacturing jobs left and right.That. or celebrating how wonderful the weather was when Ontario was in a midst of a record crippling blizzard.

Yes it's a lot easier to sympathize with a poor quiet province than a rich one with over the top boosterism.

[Maldive]

“Let the Eastern bastards freeze in the dark!”

Pierre and Marc received this greeting to the NEP.

This is surely why Alberta cities are so short and tiny and desperate-the bloody fed overlords.

Wonder where all the $capital has come from to drill, frack, destroy et al.

[misher]

Originally Posted by Maldive

“Let the Eastern bastards freeze in the dark!”

Pierre and Marc received this greeting to the NEP.

This is surely why Alberta cities are so short and tiny and desperate-the bloody fed overlords.

Wonder where all the $capital has come from to drill, frack, destroy et al.

Last I checked China? In Alberta and BC. And honestly if you don’t like our energy stop using it?

[casper]

Originally Posted by Razor

Western Alienation is more of a thing when Alberta's cyclical one horse economy tanks like clockwork. and some of the drunken sailors haven't saved their money or realize that they have to upgrade their skill set behond grade 10 education and rigging and the province itself needs to diversify. Here's my tiny violin for some of the boosters on here rubbing in all the awesomeness Alberta is, while Ontarians were losing their manufacturing jobs left and right.That. or celebrating how wonderful the weather was when Ontario was in a midst of a record crippling blizzard.

I think we have different things that are being wrapped up under the same title.

Across Western Canada that has always been a view that decision making in Ottawa is out of touch with reality. That is not a reason to separate. A lot of work has been done to move decision making into local communities. There was a time when the Saskatoon airport was run by Department of Transport and decisions on expansions etc. were made in Ottawa. The same for the commercial pier in a small town on the coast of BC. With the exception of First Nations the feds have probably gotten out of local decision making to the extend they should. Is there is concerns on this front I think it is mostly historical that reality. The one exception is implementing local governance around First Nations communities.

I think the more immediate shock was a lot of people in Alberta and Saskatchewan dislike the attitude and style of the PM to the point where they are tossing the entire Liberal party into the same camp. They can't see why anyone would vote for him and if the Conservatives can't win under these conditions the Conservatives will never win.

If the Conservative leader is also a problem.

As for pipelines, the pipeline to Vancouver is moving forward. Lots of construction going on. The Feds now own the company that is building and operating the darn thing. The Liberals should be doing photo ops in front of pipelines being laid.

At the same time there are court challenges and a local BC NDP/Green party coalition in power that is powerless to stop it but wants to be seen as putting up as much resistance as possible. I think it is the wrong approach. They need to accept it will be built and be pushing for appropriate spill response and mitigation infrastructure being built at the same time.

[flar]

It's Canada's energy, which happens to be located in the Athabasca region and has made Alberta rich, but won't forever.

Short answer for Alberta and Saskatchewan: diversify beyond bitumen and potash. Nobody is stopping you.

Very little sympathy in the ROC. Even less appetite for this to dominate federal politics ad nauseum.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by flar

It's Canada's energy, which happens to be located in the Athabasca region and has made Alberta rich, but won't forever.

Short answer for Alberta and Saskatchewan: diversify beyond bitumen and potash. Nobody is stopping you.

Very little sympathy in the ROC. Even less appetite for this to dominate federal politics ad nauseum.

100% with what you said. Also the appetite outside of Alberta and Saskatchewan for pipelines is almost non existent and the whole "pipelines are safe" keeps getting proven wrong. Most Canadians don't want to get the oil to market faster but get off the whole finite oil extraction game all together.

source: wpengine.net

The rupture occurred in central Arkansas, about 20 miles north of Little Rock, as Exxon’s Pegasus pipeline spilled thousands of barrels of Canadian tar sands oil — the same Alberta crude the Keystone pipeline would carry. The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is calling it a “major spill” as officials from the EPA and Department of Transportation’s Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration (PHMSA) are currently conducting an onsite investigation while ExxonMobil continues its cleanup efforts.

The company said more than 12,000 barrels of oil and water, or 185,000 gallons, had been recovered by Sunday. Reports say the line gushed for 45 minutes before being stopped and 22 homes were evacuated.