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  #61  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2020, 7:54 PM
Stay Stoked Brah Stay Stoked Brah is offline
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Originally Posted by Handro View Post
Of course! I live in one. Which is why it's weird you'd post a an address that is clearly totally unwalkable vs. one that clearly is.

If you're so put off by my hyperbolic example of London vs. Houston, here's a more apples-to-apples one:

This is North Center, a mostly residential neighborhood in Chicago replete with SFH homes. Despite the fact that it is a residential neighborhood heavy in SFH, notice the wide parkways separating the street from the sidewalk, the lack of driveways or garages breaking up the pedestrian experience, and the ample vegetation and tree cover: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9596...7i16384!8i8192

Here is a comparable neighborhood in Los Angeles--residential, upper-middle class, within a couple of blocks from a dense commercial district--but clearly built with a focus on ease of car ownership: https://www.google.com/maps/place/45...4d-118.4429382

I know which street I'd rather take a walk down, despite the better weather in Southern California.
both are nice areas, tbh, i'd probably go with the house in the valley off of ventura blvd. forget the weather for a moment, better investment bc better home appreciation and like Chicago it is walkable to everything.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/45...4d-118.4429382
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  #62  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2020, 7:54 PM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post

In any case, people vote with their feet and their wallets, and my stated strong preference for a certain housing type is shared by a majority of people.
And Celine Dion has outsold Prince.

There's no accounting for taste.
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  #63  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2020, 7:59 PM
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What's the point of living in an "urban" environment when the nearest shopping is a ginormous big box strip mall with massive surface parking lots? That somehow looks much less urban than the suburban Aurora shopping center...
No. South Philly is full of pedestrian-friendly commercial districts. This very nice district is not far from that Streetview:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9264...4!8i8192?hl=en

And there are random corner markets/bars/restaurants everywhere in South Philly.

Yeah, there are some auto-oriented strip centers too, but that's present basically everywhere in America, except Manhattan and immediately adjacent areas.
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  #64  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2020, 7:59 PM
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^ that LA neighborhood is still very walkable and to me a decent comprise on owning a car and still being able to walk to the store or something to eat. It's got well maintained sidewalks and on a grid unlike where I live which has no sidewalls (though we have paths) and cul-de-sacs. But, I have wildlife in the backyard.
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  #65  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2020, 8:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Handro View Post
Of course! I live in one. Which is why it's weird you'd post a an address that is clearly totally unwalkable vs. one that clearly is.

If you're so put off by my hyperbolic example of London vs. Houston, here's a more apples-to-apples one:

This is North Center, a mostly residential neighborhood in Chicago replete with SFH homes. Despite the fact that it is a residential neighborhood heavy in SFH, notice the wide parkways separating the street from the sidewalk, the lack of driveways or garages breaking up the pedestrian experience, and the ample vegetation and tree cover: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9596...7i16384!8i8192

Here is a comparable neighborhood in Los Angeles--residential, upper-middle class, within a couple of blocks from a dense commercial district--but clearly built with a focus on ease of car ownership: https://www.google.com/maps/place/45...4d-118.4429382

I know which street I'd rather take a walk down, despite the better weather in Southern California.
We're getting into a different discussion re: alleys and the separation of automobile and pedestrian traffic. There are advantages and disadvantages. Personally I think a man should be able to pull up to his castle and enter through the front door, instead of scurrying around in the dark like rats

Yes, that's a lovely walkable Chicago neighborhood, but not necessarily because of the lack of driveways and curb cuts, but mostly due to the nice landscaping enabled by the wide setbacks from the road. A better comparison in LA would by a street like this just off Sunset: https://goo.gl/maps/qc2gyDdAWmkYWQyw9

I think they are equally walkable and pleasant.
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  #66  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2020, 8:05 PM
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out of curiosity I looked up both houses, sherman oaks is valued at $2.5 million and the house in Chicago at $690,000. you'll build more equity with the house in Sherman oaks IFFFF you can afford it. Chicago is affordable, LA not so much, both are walkable and auto centric. you could buy 3 houses on that Chicago block for the same price as one house in Sherman oaks.
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  #67  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2020, 8:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
And Celine Dion has outsold Prince.
Ah ouais ? Good Lord, that's really shocking.
People are just sometimes fucked up when it comes to their habits and taste in pop music.
They don't even realize.
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  #68  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2020, 8:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Stay Stoked Brah View Post
out of curiosity I looked up both houses, sherman oaks is valued at $2.5 million and the house in Chicago at $690,000. you'll build more equity with the house in Sherman oaks IFFFF you can afford it. Chicago is affordable, LA not so much, both are walkable and auto centric. you could buy 3 houses on that Chicago block for the same price as one house in Sherman oaks.
$2.5m! I remember when the valley was the "cheaper" alternative to the city. Places like Sherman Oaks and Studio City are getting out of control. They're really nice though. You're paying for the climate and proximity to all the action. btw, presence of hummingbirds in a neighborhood should automatically increase walkscore by 100 points.

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  #69  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2020, 11:01 PM
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Pretty much any housing typology can be urban and walk-able in the right context/form.

So yes things like certain setbacks, curb cuts and the way the street is built are extremely important.
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  #70  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2020, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Easy View Post
Nice dig. I'm more than marginally fit. Lol. But I bet that people in SF try to avoid hills when they can. We have Bunker Hill here in DTLA and if I'm walking and need to get to the other side, I'll usually choose a less hilly route. I think that's only natural.
If you live on a hill, as many do, you can't avoid them. Othewise, yes, when possible but it isn't often enough that studies do show the population of the city is, on average, fitter than most and relatively long-lived. Partly those may also have to do with low rates of smoking.
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  #71  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2020, 12:54 AM
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I never thought I'd see Celine dion, prince and hummingbirds in a forum thread about the world's most walkable cities!
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  #72  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2020, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Stay Stoked Brah View Post
from that aurora street you could walk if you wanted to, to run all your errands

shopping at southlands
https://goo.gl/maps/viCAAXbAoNpBbYD47
About 1 mile away...

This is one of the intersections on the way to shopping
https://goo.gl/maps/EN1YagBdFNFDzYXK8

To get here:
https://goo.gl/maps/Y9k8bKLZLv1AVXgz7
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  #73  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2020, 2:19 AM
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Originally Posted by The North One View Post
Pretty much any housing typology can be urban and walk-able in the right context/form.
Form absolutely matters. Pre-war areas of small-lot detached SFHs can certainly provide very charming streetscapes to stroll along. I grew up in an inner ring burb like that and you can certainly do much, much worse.

But it's important to differentiate between "pleasantly walkable" and "functionally walkable". density does count for something in that it usually correlates fairly well with the amount of amenities that are available to actually walk to within an easy and convenient walking distance, say a half mile radius or so.

Areas dominated by SFHs (even small lot ones) usually don't get above 10,000 ppsm, and 5,000 ppsm is much more par for the course, which does limit the amount of services and amenities that can be supported within an easy and convenient walking distance of any given house.

Now if you happen to be lucky enough to live in one of the few houses one or two blocks over from your suburban village's traditional town center, then good on you for paying attention to the details and finer points.

However, generally speaking, someone living in a detached SFH dominated neighborhood with 5,000 ppsm will have a lot less things close by (within that half mile radius) than a Philly rowhouse neighborhood of 30,000 ppsm.




Now of course, a parade of cherry-picked counter-examples will be forthcoming from those ignoring the fact that I'm speaking in broad generalities here.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Oct 28, 2020 at 12:56 PM.
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  #74  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2020, 1:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Stay Stoked Brah View Post
I never thought I'd see Celine dion, prince and hummingbirds in a forum thread about the world's most walkable cities!
Celine Dion is the reason why Montreal is so walkable.

Funny but true story: I was walking on Sainte Catherine West in Montreal one frosty evening (right in front of the repurposed Montreal Forum), with my head down due to the cold wind from the West. I walked straight into Celine Dion and her (now deceased) husband, Rene Angelil (and a couple of their handlers). I muttered a quick "Excuse-moi, Madame et Monsieur"...Celine said something like "De rien, ce n'est pas grave".

And that is why Montreal is so walkable.

I never did buy any of her music. I do believe I have a couple of Prince albums in my stack of LPs
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  #75  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2020, 2:46 PM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
We're getting into a different discussion re: alleys and the separation of automobile and pedestrian traffic. There are advantages and disadvantages. Personally I think a man should be able to pull up to his castle and enter through the front door, instead of scurrying around in the dark like rats
from my observations of those living in suburban houses with attached garages, they seem to most often enter/exit their home through the garage door that leads to the mudroom and then to the back of the kitchen, as though they were some sort of commoner butler or maid. how regal!

but the fact that you first think of leaving and returning to your home via car indicates how car-oriented you are. i would have to imagine that i enter/exit my home via our actual literal front door much more than the average suburbanite, but that's because i'm much more likely to be on foot when i leave home vs. hopping in our car off the alley in back.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Oct 28, 2020 at 3:33 PM.
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  #76  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2020, 3:53 PM
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The discussion has gone way off the rails. Anywhere is walkable if your definition is "any place where a bipedal organism can move without external aid."

But if you are using the word as it pertains to the built environment, there are indicators that make one place more walkable than another. Density is one (reducing time and distance walked between locations), street separation is another (reducing proximity to traffic), vegetation is another (increasing aesthetics), lack of curb cuts and parking lots is another (safety, aesthetics, density). Some rare places incorporate all all of these factors, others some, others none. Since this is an urbanist forum, I assumed we were all operating under the urbanist definition of walkable. Arguing that a subdivision located in the far reaches of a metro's sprawl and proclaiming it more walkable than a dense urban mixed use neighborhood just because it has a sidewalk and grass is a bit like going to a hunting forum and deeming a dog park "huntable" because there are animals there. Technically true, I suppose, but it takes some level of psychosis and an acute misunderstanding of the general topic.
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  #77  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2020, 4:05 PM
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How many people walking this morning?
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  #78  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2020, 4:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
from my observations of those living in suburban houses with attached garages, they seem to most often enter/exit their home through the garage door that leads to the mudroom and then to the back of the kitchen, as though they were some sort of commoner butler or maid. how regal!
Most garages = junk storage. I have a free spot but I'm too lazy to use the garage. Most people just park out front or in the driveway (or on the front yard if you're in the south).

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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
But it's important to differentiate between "pleasantly walkable" and "functionally walkable". density does count for something in that it usually correlates fairly well with the amount of amenities that are available to actually walk to within an easy and convenient walking distance, say a half mile radius or so.

Areas dominated by SFHs (even small lot ones) usually don't get above 10,000 ppsm, and 5,000 ppsm is much more par for the course, which does limit the amount of services and amenities that can be supported within an easy and convenient walking distance of any given house.
I agree that density matters most when it comes to walkability (though high density doesn't always guarantee walkability, looking at you Vancouver). When you effectively shorten walking distances, you increase walkability by definition.

However, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the "pleasantly walkable" factor. In my experience, when it's really nice out, people make up any excuse to be out and about, even during a pandemic. When it's miserable out, people will find any excuse to stay indoors. Multiplied by millions of people in a city, this does have an effect on the actual numbers of people walking around, even if functional walkability remains unchanged.
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  #79  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2020, 5:27 PM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
I agree that density matters most when it comes to walkability (though high density doesn't always guarantee walkability, looking at you Vancouver). When you effectively shorten walking distances, you increase walkability by definition.

Where's Vancouver lacking in terms of walkability?
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  #80  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2020, 5:44 PM
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How many people walking this morning?
the kids wanted grilled cheese for lunch.

we were out of bread and tomato soup.

so i walked up to our grocery store to get some.


not the most exciting pedestrian adventure of my life, but it is a lot of what my life actually is these days.

it's gorgeous out today, so i imagine we'll walk over to one of our neighborhood playgrounds after remote school is done.

we're also getting low on beer, so i'll have to walk over to the liquor store today or tomorrow.





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In my experience, when it's really nice out, people make up any excuse to be out and about, even during a pandemic. When it's miserable out, people will find any excuse to stay indoors.
the flip side of that, of course, is that places with higher levels of functional walkability will have more people out and about when it's miserable out than places that are merely just "pleasantly walkable".
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"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.

Last edited by Steely Dan; Oct 28, 2020 at 6:37 PM.
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