Did you grow up in and/or are you raising a family in urban multi-family housing?

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

I think there is not a shred of evidence of this, other than "I'm on SSP and half the forumers here are die hard urbanists and will agree with me, so nanner nanner nanner!!"

Most Millennials today do not resent their parents for "forcing them to grow up in exurban sprawl"

I mean, there's a whole genre of music (emo) essentially based around millennial suburban isolation. Most might be an exaggeration, but it's definitely a common trope.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

And finally, let's face it, there's the question of schools. Very few cities have school systems that are as good as suburban systems and most people I know raising kids in the city at least send them to Catholic school if not private school, a large expense.

many big city school systems are not unilaterally "good" or "bad"; it often depends on the school in question.

us? we have a very good K-8 CPS school a block south of us that my daughter just started (virtual) kindergarten at. so we're good for the next decade.

high school is where it gets a little trickier in chicago. CPS has the 4 highest ranked high schools in the state of illinois, but they are EXTREMELY competitive to test and lottery into. CPS neighborhood high schools (where every kid is guarnteed a spot) tend to leave a lot to be desired, comparatively. but we don't have to cross that bridge for some time yet.

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

I actually don't know what a "3-flat" is. Is that 3 bedrooms? If so it may be large enough although many even modest SFHs today have separate living and "family" rooms. Or is that 3 flats stacked in which case the ones on upper floors probably don't have their own access to any rear yard space that young children could use.

same thing as a boston triple decker - 3 homes stacked vertically on top of each other (though in chicago they're almost always made of brick, not wood frame).



we have the 1st floor/finished basement condo unit, so it's quite large for a city apartment (3 bed/3 bath, 2,300 SF). and with 2 floors of living space, we have separate living and family rooms. in fact, if you lopped off the 2 units above us, it'd feel pretty close to a chicago bungalow (sans attic).

for outside play space for the kids, we have a private deck off the kitchen, a shared patio in back, and a small shared front yard with some grass. the kiddos really do make the most of it. in fact, they often throw a blanket over the landing on the open-style wooden back staircase (virtually every chicago 3-flat has one) and call it their "treehouse". gotta love city kids.

[edale]

I grew up in the burbs, but it was a pretty ideal setup. Nice yard, plenty of space to roam around, woods with a creek to explore, but could walk or bike to the neighborhood rec center, pool, some restaurants and shops, library, etc. That, combined with the fact that I always had a bunch of neighborhood friends led to me never finding the suburbs stifling or boring. Honestly, I can't imagine raising kids (if I have any) in a much different environment than the one I grew up in. I've lived in apartments now for ~12 years and don't mind it at all. But there are a couple kids in my building (school aged, not babies or toddlers, which there are a few more of) and I do kind of feel sorry for them. I'm sure they have totally great lives, but I think about how they don't have any room to run around by themselves or with a group of friends. It just seems like such a small environment to grow up in. But lots of people grow up like this and have great childhoods. So I think it really comes down to what you know. Kids adapt to their environments remarkably well, I think.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by edale

I grew up in the burbs, but it was a pretty ideal setup. Nice yard, plenty of space to roam around, woods with a creek to explore, but could walk or bike to the neighborhood rec center, pool, some restaurants and shops, library, etc. That, combined with the fact that I always had a bunch of neighborhood friends led to me never finding the suburbs stifling or boring. Honestly, I can't imagine raising kids (if I have any) in a much different environment than the one I grew up in. I've lived in apartments now for ~12 years and don't mind it at all. But there are a couple kids in my building (school aged, not babies or toddlers, which there are a few more of) and I do kind of feel sorry for them. I'm sure they have totally great lives, but I think about how they don't have any room to run around by themselves or with a group of friends. It just seems like such a small environment to grow up in. But lots of people grow up like this and have great childhoods. So I think it really comes down to what you know. Kids adapt to their environments remarkably well, I think.

Part of the problem is that American cities are so unsafe by Western standards. In other countries, kids start riding public transport by themselves like when they're 8.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

In other countries, kids start riding public transport by themselves like when they're 8.

11 (or say 10 at the soonest for those born after August).
It works as of middle school, that is as of "6th grade" in your country. When kids are 11 or older.

It's too soon when they're still in primary school. You never know what the hell could happen to them...

[badrunner]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

This is a tangent thread from the most populous city in the future thread.

Molson's post in that thread got me thinking:




I myself was raised in a detached SFH in an upper middle class burb of chicago. But now I'm raising my family in a chicago 3-flat in a city neighborhood.

Though molson's post was tongue in cheek, it did get me wondering, will my kids look back on their own childhoods as something "less than" because they didn't get the stereotypical american SFH home experience?

Our condo is valued at many hundreds of thousands of dollars, so our kids are by no means growing up poor or deprived, but might they still develop some lingering sense of it not being enough?


What about those of you who grew up in urban multi-family housing? Have you ever looked back on it as "less than"? Has it ever factored into your own housing decisions as an adult? Did it impact where you decided/will decide to raise a family of your own?

Lived in both single family and multifamily growing up, mostly single family. This might be crazy talk for this forum, but I don't think little kids have a strong preference for a specific housing typology I certainly didn't care while growing up (though as an adult I do have a preference for SFH). Kids probably care more about having their own room, being near friends, being able to walk to the corner store, etc.

[benp]

Originally Posted by badrunner

Lived in both single family and multifamily growing up, mostly single family. This might be crazy talk for this forum, but I don't think little kids have a strong preference for a specific housing typology I certainly didn't care while growing up (though as an adult I do have a preference for SFH). Kids probably care more about having their own room, being near friends, being able to walk to the corner store, etc.

Exactly. You only know what you grow up with, at least until you get to your later teens.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

I think there is not a shred of evidence of this, other than "I'm on SSP and half the forumers here are die hard urbanists and will agree with me, so nanner nanner nanner!!"

Most Millennials today do not resent their parents for "forcing them to grow up in exurban sprawl"

My kids are "oughties" (born in the 2000s) in the second half of their teens. They have never once complained about where we live in SFH inner suburbia. They do love going to the downtown areas of our metro. They began taking public transit around 12-13 and I suppose the fact we have a bus stop with all day and evening service 50 m or 150 ft away from our front door helps. They have friends who live in exurban areas where there is little to no transit (except in some cases for one bus "in" in the morning and one bus "out" in the afternoon) and they generally complain bitterly about where they live. I have never heard a single teen say how great it is to live in exurbia (ours is hilly and heavily forested) surrounded by nature.

Ultimately I think it's more a question of accessibility as opposed to housing typology.

My kids probably have had the best of both worlds with easy access to the city amenities plus they have the backyard pool, their own spacious bedrooms, a big basement with large-screen TV to chill in...

[llamaorama]

Echoing others, as an infant and toddler my parents and I lived in an apartment, then my parents bought a house(then moved and did it over again) and that's the environment I mostly grew up before moving out as a young adult and living in a sequence of various apartments, all of which have been suburban in character. As for wishing I grew up in a city, well sure, that's one reason why I ended up on SSP starting as a teenager. I was in high school when I registered for this forum. Realistically though, I know that precious few places in the US really cater to that lifestyle for all the reasons others have mentioned, like school quality, crime, etc.

FWIW, most of my childhood and teen years my family moved around and lived in smaller towns(population 15,000 and 25,000 respectively) and then a big college town(200,000). The neighborhood and type of houses were suburban in appearance, but these places also weren't culturally speaking like living in a metropolitan area sprawl either.

All I can say is that I kind of appreciate detached houses with yards over living in some kind of urban building.

But at the same time I have a distaste for metro area sprawlburbs, particularly the ones that seem like a consumable good. My cousins lived in a place like that and they were kind of snooty, everything was a competition growing up.

grew up in the burbs, but it was a pretty ideal setup. Nice yard, plenty of space to roam around, woods with a creek to explore, but could walk or bike to the neighborhood rec center, pool, some restaurants and shops, library, etc. That, combined with the fact that I always had a bunch of neighborhood friend led to me never finding the suburbs stifling or boring.

I guess it depends on where you live, but around here kids growing up in suburbs that aren't the more expensive master planned community variety don't get do to those things. Any "woods" or "creeks" are going to be private property if they even exist after being clear cut and contoured away, and any pools are going to be restricted to use by HOA members and that may not cover all phases or sections of the development. Pretty sure nowadays kids just play Fortnite instead.

This gets to why I am glad I grew up in a smaller town. For example, my parents would drive us to the municipal pool located in the city park, and I would see other kids I knew from school there, even if it was probably 5 or 6 miles away. And the school I went to had that super stereotypical small town Texas thing going for it, football was a big deal, etc, and actually it was a lot of fun to have been part of that culture.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by benp

You only know what you grow up with, at least until you get to your later teens.

Well of course.

But I wasn't asking the question to little kids, I was asking it to adults who grew up in multi-family housing (for a substantial part of their formative years, not just as babies/toddlers).

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

What about those of you who grew up in urban multi-family housing? Have you ever looked back on it as "less than"? Has it ever factored into your own housing decisions as an adult? Did it impact where you decided/will decide to raise a family of your own?

I'm curious about this because my wife and I are planning to stay put in our 3-flat condo for the long-haul of raising our kids (now ages 6 and 4). I know that my kids don't give much of a shit about this stuff now at their ages, but I do wonder how they might feel about it when they're adults because so much of our american society/culture/media bombards us with the message that the only acceptable way to raise a family is in a detached SFH with a big yard; that any other way to do it is somehow "less than" or inherently inferior.

I want to know how people who were raised in a different fashion than the american SFH standard feel about it as adults, and what kind of home they're raising their own family in.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

I'm curious about this because my wife and I are planning to stay put in our 3-flat condo for the long-haul of raising our kids (now ages 6 and 4). I know that my kids don't give much of a shit about this stuff now at their ages, but I do wonder how my kids might feel about it when they're adults because so much of our american society/culture/media bombards us with the message that the only acceptable way to raise a family is in a detached SFH with a big yard; that any other way to do it is somehow "less than" or inherently inferior.

I think the more important factor is how their peers live, moreso than what's commonly depicted in the media.

For example, as I mentioned I grew up in a SFH - but most of my classmates & friends growing up lived in apartments. Often small and not-so-nice ones. So I was always very cognizant of my privilege in that I got to live in a house where I at least had my own space, even if it wasn't much. On the other hand, if all my friends had been rich kids living in mansions, my parents modest house would have seem dumpy & deprived in comparison I'm sure.

But frankly - from what I've seen at least - your place is just as good or better than the typical SFH anyway. I think if a kid's got their own bedroom, easy access to the outdoors, and can reliably get to wherever they need to go without parental assistance, they can't really ask for much more. And they get to live in central Chicago of all places!

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

Part of the problem is that American cities are so unsafe by Western standards. In other countries, kids start riding public transport by themselves like when they're 8.

That's mostly a myth.

When I was a child, many kids in New York at least took the subway or other public transit to school and certainly they did in middle and high school (age 12 and above).

Much has been written about whether anything has really changed since then and the conclusions I've seen are almost always that they haven't.

Kidnapped children make headlines, but abduction is rare in U.S.

The whole "free range parenting" movement is based on that reality--parents who simply aren't as frightened and overprotective as others and don't feel the need to "helicopter" over them constantly.

What has really changed in 50 years is the media. Whereas once we read the printed newspapers once or maybe twice a day and maybe saw the report of a missing child on a back page, today we are bombarded with missing child reports everywhere, even on the Apple watch on my wrist and the carton from which I pour milk for my morning cereal.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by edale

I grew up in the burbs, but it was a pretty ideal setup. Nice yard, plenty of space to roam around, woods with a creek to explore, but could walk or bike to the neighborhood rec center, pool, some restaurants and shops, library, etc. That, combined with the fact that I always had a bunch of neighborhood friends led to me never finding the suburbs stifling or boring. .

That pretty much describes my childhood too--after we moved to the suburbs when I was 5--right down to the creek (which my friends and I dammed in the summer to create a swimming hole).

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

That's mostly a myth.

When I was a child, many kids in New York at least took the subway or other public transit to school and certainly they did in middle and high school (age 12 and above).

Much has been written about whether anything has really changed since then and the conclusions I've seen are almost always that they haven't.

Kidnapped children make headlines, but abduction is rare in U.S.

The whole "free range parenting" movement is based on that reality--parents who simply aren't as frightened and overprotective as others and don't feel the need to "helicopter" over them constantly.

What has really changed in 50 years is the media. Whereas once we read the printed newspapers once or maybe twice a day and maybe saw the report of a missing child on a back page, today we are bombarded with missing child reports everywhere, even on the Apple watch on my wrist and the carton from which I pour milk for my morning cereal.

When *you* were a child. My mom used to ride her bike into the city to visit her aunt when she was 9 or 10 in the 50's. Today, that area is straight up hood and dangerous even for adults. That was a simpler and safer time.

[benp]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Well of course.

But I wasn't asking the question to little kids, I was asking it to adults who grew up in multi-family housing (for a substantial part of their formative years, not just as babies/toddlers).



I'm curious about this because my wife and I are planning to stay put in our 3-flat condo for the long-haul of raising our kids (now ages 6 and 4). I know that my kids don't give much of a shit about this stuff now at their ages, but I do wonder how they might feel about it when they're adults because so much of our american society/culture/media bombards us with the message that the only acceptable way to raise a family is in a detached SFH with a big yard; that any other way to do it is somehow "less than" or inherently inferior.

I want to know how people who were raised in a different fashion than the american SFH standard feel about it as adults, and what kind of home they're raising their own family in.

My experience as a child formed my adult opinion. What was "normal" as a child will always be "normal" for the rest of my life. I think this is true no matter how you are brought up, provided you are in a supportive family.

Your kids will grow up fine. If you signal to your children that they are in some way "deprived" only then they learn to feel deprived. It's your problem, not your kids.

I had the opposite feelings of what constituted "deprived" as an adult after we had children. After spending a few years in the suburbs, I wanted my children to have the same experience of independence that I had growing up in the city (walkability, etc), so when they were older we moved back into a smaller house in the city, although it was still a SFH.

[jmecklenborg]

I was raised for a few years in an old brick tenement in Cincinnati from the 1880s or thereabouts. I have always wondered if the behavior problems and ADHD that caused me to almost flunk out of high school came from lead exposure in that building.

Guessing by the photos of me playing with the other kids we were the only white family in the building. Our unit was broken into and the hi-fi stereo (the only expensive thing my parents owned) was stolen. The building was damaged due to nearby highway construction (the hillside slipped) and we were all given 30 days to move out. The building was torn down and it's an empty lot today.

The unit had a fire escape where we had a grill but I don't recall being allowed out on it.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

I think the more important factor is how their peers live, moreso than what's commonly depicted in the media.

That's a good point to keep in mind.

Whenever CPS does reopen for in-person learning, my kids will go to school with some kids who live in 7 figure houses, other kids who live in section 8 apartments, and everything in between.

That kind of economic diversity that one finds in the city was an intentional decision my wife and I made because we both grew up in VERY monolithicly upper middle class suburbs. Those kinds of bubbles can lead to some skewed perspectives, ones that aren't very healthy, IMO.

[mthd]

grew up in fully detached single family houses in Silicon Valley.

rising two kids (presently 2 and 9) in San Francisco in a pre-war mid-rise multi-unit building. we could (easily) buy a SFH almost anywhere, but having a yard or extra bedroom pales in comparison to the benefits of being walking distance from parks, libraries, schools (older daughter is in 4th grade), shopping, restaurants, friends, etc. all the reasons adults like cities applies to kids too, except for the proximity of jobs, which kids don’t care much about .... except for the extra couple hours a week their parents have from not commuting.

my kids know the guy who runs the market across the street, they know the couple who own the nearest tacqueria, the go to a park or playground pretty much every day, are friends with a dozen dogs and an equal number of kids their age, and (pre-covid) they love riding public transport, both buses and trains. there are even beaches within (a slightly longer) walking distance.

the idea that each child needs private outdoor space adjacent to their dwelling is antisocial. yes, my kids also see homeless people from time to time, and 99% of the time said people mind their own business or give them a smile.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by JManc

When *you* were a child. My mom used to ride her bike into the city to visit her aunt when she was 9 or 10 in the 50's. Today, that area is straight up hood and dangerous even for adults. That was a simpler and safer time.

I rode my bike too all over the place. For me “the city” was Washington DC at its worst. My suburban neighbors would never go into DC for any reason. I once had all 4 hubcaps stolen from my car at a stop light while I was in the car. Whole swaths of Washington that were “no go” zones for middle class white people back then have experienced the urban rennaissance and are now solid integrated middle class neighborhoods.

It depends on the city, not the time.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by mthd

grew up in fully detached single family houses in Silicon Valley.

rising two kids (presently 2 and 9) in San Francisco in a pre-war mid-rise multi-unit building. we could (easily) buy a SFH almost anywhere, but having a yard or extra bedroom pales in comparison to the benefits of being walking distance from parks, libraries, schools (older daughter is in 4th grade), shopping, restaurants, friends, etc. all the reasons adults like cities applies to kids too, except for the proximity of jobs, which kids don’t care much about .... except for the extra couple hours a week their parents have from not commuting.

my kids know the guy who runs the market across the street, they know the couple who own the nearest tacqueria, the go to a park or playground pretty much every day, are friends with a dozen dogs and an equal number of kids their age, and (pre-covid) they love riding public transport, both buses and trains. there are even beaches within (a slightly longer) walking distance.

the idea that each child needs private outdoor space adjacent to their dwelling is antisocial. yes, my kids also see homeless people from time to time, and 99% of the time said people mind their own business or give them a smile.

Nobody said the outdoor space had to be “private” but it has to be the sort of place you can let the kids (we are talking todlers and primary school age) come and go in and out without parental accompaniment. In the suburbs, our yards weren’t fenced so we all played in each others yards and the entire neighborhood was essentially one big play space. But the essential point was that when I, as a 6 year old, wanted to go outside and have a snowball fight or play tag with friends, I didn’t need to ask a parent—I just went. As I got older, my range expanded via bicycle until I could get a driver’s license. We had busses too of course that could take us into the city which we began to do around the time we entered our teens.

To call that antisocial is idiocy.

Sounds like you live in the outer Richmond (walk to the beach). As city neighborhoods go, that might as well be the suburbs.