HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #101  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2019, 11:11 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by M II A II R II K View Post
Highways Give Way to Homes as Cities Rebuild

https://www.realtor.com/news/trends/...ities-rebuild/
Interesting article but it seems to me that most of these examples are either burying highways (which I think is a good idea) or the elimination of unnecessary old highway ramps that are underused anyway

There are still highways right directly adjacent to downtown Milwaukee today not to sure where this roadway was but 30 acres really isnt much road
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #102  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2019, 3:19 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,634
^ yep, as i mentioned earlier, the frequently referenced "freeway" that milwaukee removed was really just a one mile stretch of freeway that served as a spur. it was built in the 60s as part of what was intended to be a full freeway loop all the way around downtown milwaukee going east from I-43 on the northern edge and then continuing south along the lakefront to meet up with I-794.

but due to neighborhood protest, the other sections were never built and the plans for a downtown freeway loop were eventually abandoned, so milwaukee was left with this mile-long stub of elevated freeway that was total overkill for its carrying capacity needs. the city wisely decided to rip it down and replaced it with a more normal and city-friendly ground level boulevard.

here's a map of the original plan. the blue is the existing I-43 freeway, the red is the now demolished section of the park freeway, and the green are the sections of the proposed freeway loop that were never built due to community push-back.


source: https://populous.com/fiserv-forum-th...-success-story



but yes, downtown milwaukee still has the I-43 freeway trench on it's western flank and the elevated I-794 structure on its southern edge.
  • I-43 connects up with I-94 at the marquette interchange immediately SW of downtown, and as a MAJOR through route, it will not be going away anytime soon.

  • I-794 connects traffic from I-94/I-43 to the hoan bridge which is a high bridge that crosses over the mouth of the milwaukee river SE of downtown. many milwaukee urbanists have long maintained that the large, overbearing elevated structure of I-794 is overkill and a major detriment for downtown, and they believe it should likewise be ripped down and replaced with a ground level boulevard. but as of now, there are no active plans to demolish I-794 that i am aware of.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.

Last edited by Steely Dan; Dec 5, 2019 at 5:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #103  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2019, 3:48 PM
Handro Handro is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,270
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post

Either that or send them to Manhattan Taxi School. Say what you want about NYC taxi drivers, they move. That they do! Even amidst bottleneck traffic, they master the art of cutting people off, and getting to sites quick!
Might be true for whoever is in the car by a few seconds, but that's what pisses me off about drivers who blatantly cut people off in all manner of ways--that's what slows down traffic. If everyone followed the rules--spoken and unspoken--of hte road, traffic would flow much more freely.

Where my sister lives in Northern Italy, traffic by sheer volume can be brutal. But everyone is careful to stay in their lane, be aware of other drivers, let people pass, take their turn at roundabouts, it is actually pretty amazing how conscientious and patient the drivers there are. Although I'll never understand the practice of STOPPING to merge onto expressways, not sure if that's the rule there or just a bad habit that lots of people adopted.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #104  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2019, 4:43 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
^ yep, as i mentioned earlier, the frequently referenced "freeway" that milwaukee removed was really just a one mile stretch of freeway that served as a spur. it was built in the 60s as part of what was intended to be a full freeway loop all the way around downtown milwaukee going east from I-43 on the northern edge and then continuing south along the lakefront to meet up with I-794.
The things people did in the 1950's-1980's with cities still boggles my mind

Lets tear down old buildings and put up modernist abominations!!!!

Forget this old classical train station lets give it an 8 foot ceiling and Laminate Floor!!

Lets build roads on all of our waterfronts and fill our rivers in with concrete!!!!

Lets put on tight brown corduroy pants, flower orange shirts, and have mustaches with long unkempt hair!

It was like everyone lost their minds
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #105  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2019, 4:56 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
The things people did in the 1950's-1980's with cities still boggles my mind

Lets tear down old buildings and put up modernist abominations!!!!

Forget this old classical train station lets give it an 8 foot ceiling and Laminate Floor!!

Lets build roads on all of our waterfronts and fill our rivers in with concrete!!!!

Lets put on tight brown corduroy pants, flower orange shirts, and have mustaches with long unkempt hair!

It was like everyone lost their minds
One of the crucial things to remember about the period after World War II is the fight against Naxism caused a huge counter-reaction in Western culture. Essentially the idea that there is anything which is inborn, essential, or natural to human nature was viewed as false. Everything - including aesthetics - was considered to be socially constructed by upbringing. So you could build horrific concrete boxes, raise people up to think they were beautiful, and they would believe they were beautiful.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #106  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2019, 5:00 PM
Handro Handro is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,270
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
One of the crucial things to remember about the period after World War II is the fight against Naxism caused a huge counter-reaction in Western culture. Essentially the idea that there is anything which is inborn, essential, or natural to human nature was viewed as false. Everything - including aesthetics - was considered to be socially constructed by upbringing. So you could build horrific concrete boxes, raise people up to think they were beautiful, and they would believe they were beautiful.
That's interesting, is there a name of that school of thought?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #107  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2019, 5:15 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Handro View Post
That's interesting, is there a name of that school of thought?
Yes, it's called blank slate theory. In the 1950s they literally believed that you could take any baby and raise it to be a high-level mathematician or a homicidal maniac just by changing the inputs. It's why when they botched circumcisions and cut off a baby boy's penis they just thought they could raise them as girls. It's why autism was considered to be caused by mothers being cold and distant towards their infants. The list goes on and on.

This affected architecture and urban planning in a number of ways. One is that as I mentioned aesthetics were considered totally subjective, meaning they could design anything and just tell people it was beautiful. Another was the idea that social pathologies were shaped by the built environment, so if you knocked down "tenement housing" and put the former residents into clean modern towers, this would result in a dramatic lowering of crime and reduction in negative social outcomes.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #108  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2019, 5:24 PM
pj3000's Avatar
pj3000 pj3000 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pittsburgh & Miami
Posts: 7,544
I think it was the drugs.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #109  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2019, 5:33 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,550
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Another was the idea that social pathologies were shaped by the built environment, so if you knocked down "tenement housing" and put the former residents into clean modern towers, this would result in a dramatic lowering of crime and reduction in negative social outcomes.
This was a huge piece of the postwar social housing worldview. Planners were always talking about "light and air". There's a reason there's so much social housing in Coney Island and the Rockaways. Decisionmakers really thought that the ocean environment would cure the ills of the "ghetto".
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #110  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2019, 5:55 PM
edale edale is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
It's why when they botched circumcisions and cut off a baby boy's penis they just thought they could raise them as girls.
I'm sorry, what?! I've never heard of this...at all. How many botched circumcisions completely cut off a baby's penis? Surely this was not a common occurrence. Thanks for the lols this morning.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #111  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2019, 6:08 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,634
Quote:
Originally Posted by edale View Post
I'm sorry, what?! I've never heard of this...at all. How many botched circumcisions completely cut off a baby's penis? Surely this was not a common occurrence. Thanks for the lols this morning.
i don't know how many it happened to, but it definitely happened.

i saw a riveting play titled "Boy" a couple years ago based on the true story of what happened to David Reimer.

it was absolutely tragic what they did to that poor kid.

he ended up committing suicide.

no fucking "lols" about that.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #112  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2019, 6:19 PM
Handro Handro is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,270
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Yes, it's called blank slate theory. In the 1950s they literally believed that you could take any baby and raise it to be a high-level mathematician or a homicidal maniac just by changing the inputs. It's why when they botched circumcisions and cut off a baby boy's penis they just thought they could raise them as girls. It's why autism was considered to be caused by mothers being cold and distant towards their infants. The list goes on and on.

This affected architecture and urban planning in a number of ways. One is that as I mentioned aesthetics were considered totally subjective, meaning they could design anything and just tell people it was beautiful. Another was the idea that social pathologies were shaped by the built environment, so if you knocked down "tenement housing" and put the former residents into clean modern towers, this would result in a dramatic lowering of crime and reduction in negative social outcomes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
This was a huge piece of the postwar social housing worldview. Planners were always talking about "light and air". There's a reason there's so much social housing in Coney Island and the Rockaways. Decisionmakers really thought that the ocean environment would cure the ills of the "ghetto".
Interesting! I just bought Steven Pinker's Book
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #113  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2019, 6:29 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Yes, it's called blank slate theory. In the 1950s they literally believed that you could take any baby and raise it to be a high-level mathematician or a homicidal maniac just by changing the inputs. It's why when they botched circumcisions and cut off a baby boy's penis they just thought they could raise them as girls. It's why autism was considered to be caused by mothers being cold and distant towards their infants. The list goes on and on.

This affected architecture and urban planning in a number of ways. One is that as I mentioned aesthetics were considered totally subjective, meaning they could design anything and just tell people it was beautiful. Another was the idea that social pathologies were shaped by the built environment, so if you knocked down "tenement housing" and put the former residents into clean modern towers, this would result in a dramatic lowering of crime and reduction in negative social outcomes.
You can definitely notice the "celebration of ugliness" in arts and architecture. Happy to see that a lot of newer buildings are going back to more ornamental styling.

I really do like some of the newer Towers in NYC they seem to have a Gothic vibe to them
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #114  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2019, 6:34 PM
edale edale is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
i don't know how many it happened to, but it definitely happened.

i saw a riveting play titled "Boy" a couple years ago based on the true story of what happened to David Reimer.

it was absolutely tragic what they did to that poor kid.

he ended up committing suicide.

no fucking "lols" about that.
Great. I still contest that using an example of boys who have their dicks chopped off via circumcision accidents being raised as girls to discuss 'blank slate theory' (especially in the context of urban planning) is fucking weird and funny.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #115  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2019, 6:50 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by edale View Post
Great. I still contest that using an example of boys who have their dicks chopped off via circumcision accidents being raised as girls to discuss 'blank slate theory' (especially in the context of urban planning) is fucking weird and funny.
The point is it was the zeitgeist of the period from 1945 to 1980 or so, and basically infected everything about how humans interacted with one another and were affected by the built environment.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #116  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2019, 6:50 PM
ardecila's Avatar
ardecila ardecila is offline
TL;DR
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: the city o'wind
Posts: 16,356
OK - there is always a limit to how much academic trends are able to influence political processes like urban planning. Even if you view the postwar period as a high-water mark for academics' influence on government policy, it's still only a small piece of the rationale behind these decisions.

Equally important to the story of urban renewal is the abysmal state of American cities after 20 years of crushing depression and wartime rationing., coupled with the tremendous increase in standard of living from 1945-1960. Old buildings (especially apartment buildings) weren't just "unfashionable" by the 1950s, they were literally crumbling, often unsafe, and did not offer any of the modern amenities that Americans were coming to expect. Y'know, amenities like private bathrooms, hot water, or decent heating systems. Amenities like closets, or bedrooms big enough to fit a queen mattress.

If you ever live in an unrenovated prewar tenement, you will appreciate why reformers in the postwar period were so eager to move the poor into modern housing and tear down the old.

It wasn't just housing, either. Most streetcar systems were truly dilapidated by 1950, and were not able to raise money to rebuild their infrastructure. So, no surprise that everyone wanted to switch to cars.
__________________
la forme d'une ville change plus vite, hélas! que le coeur d'un mortel...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #117  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2019, 6:53 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
OK - there is always a limit to how much academic trends are able to influence political processes like urban planning. Even if you view the postwar period as a high-water mark for academics' influence on government policy, it's still only a small piece of the rationale behind these decisions.

Equally important to the story of urban renewal is the abysmal state of American cities after 20 years of crushing depression and wartime rationing., coupled with the tremendous increase in standard of living from 1945-1960. Old buildings (especially apartment buildings) weren't just "unfashionable" by the 1950s, they were literally crumbling, often unsafe, and did not offer any of the modern amenities that Americans were coming to expect. Y'know, amenities like private bathrooms, hot water, or decent heating systems. Amenities like closets, or bedrooms big enough to fit a queen mattress.

If you ever live in an unrenovated prewar tenement, you will appreciate why reformers in the postwar period were so eager to move the poor into modern housing and tear down the old.
America's cities were in much better shape than those of Europe or Japan during that time period, by virtue of not being piles of rubble.

I actually read an essay that argued U.S. urban renewal was in part caused by envy of the blank slate European urban planners had to work with. Americans wanted big empty canvases to make their mark in just like across the pond.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #118  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2019, 7:42 PM
pj3000's Avatar
pj3000 pj3000 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pittsburgh & Miami
Posts: 7,544
It's really amazing that it took 6 pages for us to talking about chopping off dicks. We usually get there by page 3!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #119  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2019, 8:43 PM
badrunner badrunner is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 2,698
Botched circumcision is a perfect metaphor for postwar urban renewal though
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #120  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2019, 9:11 PM
PhilliesPhan's Avatar
PhilliesPhan PhilliesPhan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,261
I would love nothing more than to not only remove I-95 from Philadelphia County, but all of PA. There is absolutely no reason why that POS should have destroyed Philadelphia's waterfront. If I could remove/improve highways in the Philadelphia area, this is how I would do it:

-I-95 would run the length of the Jersey Turnpike, from the Delaware Memorial Bridge to the GW Bridge. Not only would this allow for the removal of I-95 in Philly, but it would also allow for its removal in Wilmington, DE.

-With the Jersey Turnpike re-designated, the section of 95 between the Oregon Avenue and (at least) the Girard Avenue interchanges would be demolished. The southern part of the former I-95 would become I-495 (running from the Delaware Memorial Bridge interchange to Broad Street), and the northern part would be designated as I-295.

-I-76 (the Schuylkill Expressway) would be tunneled under West Philly (via 31st and 32nd Streets) between Spring Garden Street and the Schuylkill River. Doing this would allow the Schuylkill to be expanded to six lanes between the Walt Whitman Bridge and the US 1 interchange.

-I-676 (the Vine Street Expressway) would be completely capped between 9th and 22nd Streets. Additionally, the westbound 15th/16th Street would be changed to the same "see-saw" interchange layout as the eastbound side. Furthermore, a direct interchange to the Ben Franklin Bridge would be established. The former will allow for redevelopment of the large parcel that the current interchange occupies, and the latter will include street diets for 5th, 6th, 7th, Race, Vine, and Callowhill Streets. Finally, the section between the Ben Franklin Bridge and I-76 in Camden would be demolished.
__________________
No one outsmarts a Fox!

Temple University '18 ']['
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:19 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.