Was Don Mills the turning point in terms of suburbanization in Canada?

[Docere]

Is it accurate to say "urban" type areas were still being built for the working classes in Montreal into the 1960s?

In Toronto, there doesn't really seem to be a class difference. In 1960, the working class suburbanites were moving to places like Downsview, while the middle and professional classes were moving to places like Don Mills. Downsview and Don Mills seem equally "suburban" to me.

[Kilgore Trout]

Absolutely. You had relatively dense housing being built well into the 1970s, sometimes just blocks from bungalows and more conventional suburban housing.

St-Michel, built 1957:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/AbhSPFECojeUwZ4h9

Not far away in St-Léonard, built 1964:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/wVZaYFnembaqFr2EA

Also in St-Léonard, built 1977:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/o1Dv2JVxqLimqF278



Another interesting set of examples here:

Montreal North, built 1957:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/KDEurJfQcfZaLaX19

Montreal North, built 1968:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/HruifJ5UXdhYa2t17

Montreal North, built 1971:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/RUBGyR1JGYobnwto9


At the time all of these places were suburbs of Montreal. St-Michel was annexed to Montreal in 1968, Montreal North and St-Léonard in 2000.

[Kilgore Trout]

Laval is also interesting in this regard. Here's a street corner of Chomedey. This block was developed in 1963:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/BsTD7Cqkx7GzsHM6A

Just a few blocks away, total bungalow belt suburbia, built in 1956:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/GPXKKm6R4Pi3Ghs38

Also in the same area, a street of small apartment buildings built in 1958. Definitely suburban, but somewhere in between the two previous examples:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/hgKTMVXXmDqi5JbH8

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

At this point I'm astonished Norgate has not been redeveloped. It's directly across the street from a metro station and suburban bus terminus, it's located in what has become quite a dense neighbourhood, and yet... there it is. Today a very ordinary-looking strip mall known most of all for having a parking lot managed by scam artists who will tow your car and try to extort money from you.

Montreal has a surprisingly high number of high-profile spots (adjacent to metro stations, for example) which are underdeveloped. Norgate is a great example of this. And I hate those awful places that feature predatory towing companies. I was the victim of this myself a few years ago, on Christmas day, no less (in Oakville, Ontario).

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Laval is also interesting in this regard. Here's a street corner of Chomedey. This block was developed in 1963:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/BsTD7Cqkx7GzsHM6A

Just a few blocks away, total bungalow belt suburbia, built in 1956:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/GPXKKm6R4Pi3Ghs38

Also in the same area, a street of small apartment buildings built in 1958. Definitely suburban, but somewhere in between the two previous examples:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/hgKTMVXXmDqi5JbH8

That first link is quintessential inner-suburb Montreal. It could be Lasalle. It could be Verdun. It could be St. Leonard. Vincent de Paul...even some of the older parts of DDO and Pierrefonds have stretches of this building style.

[Docere]

Is Leaside urban or suburban?

It's certainly an early vintage than Don Mills (built up mostly in the 1940s), and on the old grid. But you can see elements of both.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7051...8192?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7021...8192?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7046...8192?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6996...8192?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7119...8192?entry=ttu

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Docere

Is it accurate to say "urban" type areas were still being built for the working classes in Montreal into the 1960s?

In Toronto, there doesn't really seem to be a class difference. In 1960, the working class suburbanites were moving to places like Downsview, while the middle and professional classes were moving to places like Don Mills. Downsview and Don Mills seem equally "suburban" to me.

Both suburban, but there are definite form & density differences between the 1960s working/lower-middle class developments (predominantly semi-detached, and/or with smaller lots) and middle/upper class ones (larger, leafier lots).

Eg. western North York:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ueBnKEvYvU27ifcm7
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Bmyk11zPKmDsdRVh7

Vs. eastern North York:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/t4mTr5UrsQZekf4UA
https://maps.app.goo.gl/iFa4ESRGAf5qfogU8

[Docere]

Strong east/west difference in terms of prevalence of detached housing

Detached house

Kirkland 87%
Beaconsfield 86%
Dollard-des-Ormeaux 57%
Hampstead 50%
Pointe Claire 50%
Dorval 46%
Town of Mount Royal 32%
Montreal-Est 21%
Cote St. Luc 14%
Saint Laurent riding/borough 11%
Bourassa riding (Montreal Nord) 7%
St. Leonard-St. Michel riding 5%

(CSL is lower than I expected)

[Docere]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Both suburban, but there are definite form & density differences between the 1960s working/lower-middle class developments (predominantly semi-detached, and/or with smaller lots) and middle/upper class ones (larger, leafier lots).

Eg. western North York:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ueBnKEvYvU27ifcm7
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Bmyk11zPKmDsdRVh7

Vs. eastern North York:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/t4mTr5UrsQZekf4UA
https://maps.app.goo.gl/iFa4ESRGAf5qfogU8

Yes these images capture well the east/west split in North York or the contrast between the more working class "Downsview" and more middle class/upscale "Don Mills" typologies from that era.

[niwell]

For anyone interested in the types of Montreal developments post-war posted above I'd highly recommend this book: https://www.cca.qc.ca/en/events/3442...eal-thinks-big

There are lots of aerial pics showing full apartment neighbourhoods being built into the 60s adjacent to farmland. It's a wild juxtaposition we aren't really used to anymore.

Similarly there are black and white pics showing Toronto suburban highrises in the 60s at the edge of the city. Different form of urbanism but full neighbourhoods were built that contained a full gamut of housing typologies from scratch.

http://towerrenewal.com/wp-content/u...een-belt-7.jpg

[Docere]

^ Good example of that of course is the Jane-Finch area (including York University). The area was rural in the 1950s. According to the 1961 census, the population of the area (all contained in one CT running between Dufferin and Highway 400 north of Sheppard) was about 1,000. By 1971, it was 50,000. A big university had opened and it was filled with high rises that were attracting new immigrants. It would have been quite a remarkable transformation to witness.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by niwell

For anyone interested in the types of Montreal developments post-war posted above I'd highly recommend this book: https://www.cca.qc.ca/en/events/3442...eal-thinks-big

There are lots of aerial pics showing full apartment neighbourhoods being built into the 60s adjacent to farmland. It's a wild juxtaposition we aren't really used to anymore.

Similarly there are black and white pics showing Toronto suburban highrises in the 60s at the edge of the city. Different form of urbanism but full neighbourhoods were built that contained a full gamut of housing typologies from scratch.

http://towerrenewal.com/wp-content/u...een-belt-7.jpg

ahh, the days when we built for the future, knowing that the density is just what the doctor ordered. Build it, and they will come. Today it is "they will come, but we won't build it"

Indeed, Montreal "thought big" in the 60s. Then came the 70s. The rise of the PQ and the lead up to the first referendum. And the Big Owe (unfinished, 10 times over budget, shoddy construction, Mafia contracts). And Mirabel. The combination of this triad killed Montreal's aspirations...for decades.

[Docere]

The 1951 Census Tract data has 1941 populations.

North York grew from 23,000 in 1941 to 86,000 in 1951. It was pretty much completely rural in 1940. What went up during the immediate aftermath can be described as "pre-Don Mills" and is still a continuation of the grid.

Most of the initial postwar growth occurred around Yonge and east of Bathurst.

The Ledbury Park/Glencairn area (between Bathurst and Avenue Rd.) is immediate post-war development.

1941 1,616
1951 12,318
1961 15,635

The area around Avenue Rd. and Lawrence feels like a transition between North Toronto and North York. In fact Google maps (incorrectly) excludes it from North York.

Lansing and Willowdale were postal villages pre-WWII and still followed the grid pattern:

1941 5,577
1951 21,823
1961 36,151

[Docere]

This old post from Monkey Ronin captures well what I'm speaking about it. The built-up area in 1950 includes the transitional, pre-Don Mills areas:

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...02&postcount=9

[MolsonExport]

Rexdale, way back in the day:

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Docere

This old post from Monkey Ronin captures well what I'm speaking about it. The built-up area in 1950 includes the transitional, pre-Don Mills areas:

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...02&postcount=9

Blast from the past! Nice find.

Here's a better map though (not by me), with more granular building-by-building age data: https://historiandanielross.files.wo...tion-dates.jpg

The dates are a bit different though (eg. 1945-1960 are all lumped together, so you don't really get a sense of the immediate post-war era vs post-Don Mills era); and it shows newer development, so you can also see areas that have experienced heavier redevelopment (which includes much of the immediate post-war bungalow belt).

[Docere]

Lansing/Willowdale

1941 5,577
1951 21,823
1961 36,151
1971 36,900

Newtonbrook

1941 2,341
1951 5,824
1961 19,062
1971 33,465

Downsview

1941 813
1951 5,163
1961 34,393
1971 43,680

[Docere]

Downsview postal codes

1941 1,682
1951 12,149
1961 66,620
1971 130,375

Bathurst Manor/Wilson Heights

1961 30,643
1971 34,725

Old Downsview

1961 34,393
1971 43,680

Jane-Finch

1961 1,584
1971 51,970

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by niwell

Similarly there are black and white pics showing Toronto suburban highrises in the 60s at the edge of the city. Different form of urbanism but full neighbourhoods were built that contained a full gamut of housing typologies from scratch.

http://towerrenewal.com/wp-content/u...een-belt-7.jpg

That's something we might be seeing more of again in the future though! Here's one proposal for a greenfield site in Brampton:




https://urbantoronto.ca/news/2024/01...bourhood.54910

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Docere

Is Leaside urban or suburban?

It's certainly an early vintage than Don Mills (built up mostly in the 1940s), and on the old grid. But you can see elements of both.

Leaside is an example of where Toronto resembles Los Angeles. It is similar to Beverly Hills in a way.