Urbanization in Canada

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by thewave46

This is such a weird map from a practical point of view. I get it meets some standardized statistical criteria, but still.

Northern Manitoba and much of Northwestern Ontario are about the same 'remoteness', if the only way in or out is a winter road/bush plane. Yet the map classifies them differently.

I'd grade it by presence of all-weather/season highways, number of transportation options (car/bus/train/airport), and proximity to nearest CMA.

Yet, it classifies Baffin Island as about as remote as Kenora, 3 hours by car from Winnipeg. Sure.

And how is the Great Northern Newfoundland Peninsula "Very Remote" when it has numerous villages (~15K in total population) and roads connecting it to the rest of the island?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Northern Manitoba and much of Northwestern Ontario are about the same 'remoteness', if the only way in or out is a winter road/bush plane. Yet the map classifies them differently.

You can see provincial boundaries in a lot of these maps, including on the road map where just over the border Saskatchewan seems to have a less developed road network than Manitoba. Maybe they do but it could just be the classification and you can see SK has a similar density of roads.

I agree if you have no road access whatsoever you're basically at max remoteness and in remote areas you care about what basic services you can get to within some reasonable timeframe, not having a 200k vs 2 million person urban area 8 hours away.

A high resolution population density map showing the full settlement patterns is probably most expressive overall.

[TorontoDrew]

Perhaps one of the metrics for that map are about settlements and access to infrastructure? NFLD might have a bunch of roads up their but not much in the way of gas, hydro, and internet. The Dempster hwy in the Yukon is Canada's most northern hwy but some of the segments are over 350km between fuel up stations. If you break down up there you'll need to wait for a passerby for assistance unless you have a satellite phone. Help could be several hours away. It's probably nowhere near that bad in norther NFLD though.

[someone123]

It's not exactly a megacity but I'm pretty sure St. Anthony NL has basic services like internet.

(To me it's fairly standard to see Canada-level statistical constructs that are a poor fit for Atlantic Canada and tend to make it look worse than it is.)

[Acajack]

Deer Lake to St Anthony is around 500 km I think. My guess is that any stretches without gas and basic services would be in the 100 km range at the very most. Maybe more in the 50-75 km range even.

In that sense, it's probably no worse than crossing Northern Ontario on the TCH (especially Ontario Highway 11).

[zoomer]

So, I’m planning a 7-10 day trip to Toronto in May, and I’m pretty excited about exploring it in a fair bit of detail based on the time I have.

Now, this afternoon I was watching Ken Continuum’s (don’t watch him much, usually I’ll catch Johnny Strides a couple times a week) live early evening street walk in Toronto from Midtown to Little Jamaica, probably around 7:30ish p.m. Toronto time.

He said something that caught my attention in reply to a viewer comment about Vancouver:

“It’s a beautiful city, it just seemed a bit too sleepy for my liking, didn’t have the vitality and energy that Toronto has”.

“I’m more of an urbanity guy”.

You’ll find that around the 1:23:42 left in the live stream.

I think most would say that’s a fair assessment, but as I know Vancouver very well its my starting point for what I can expect in Toronto.

Later with 1:22:05 left he says as he’s walking up Eglington, he says “ok, we’re coming into Little Jamaica - this is the sort of neighbourhood you’ll never find in Vancouver”.

True?

His walk is at night so it’s hard to see a lot to be fair, and it’s a Monday in January, but I’m not so sure what makes this neighbourhood that special. Is it something worth checking out? It feels like a mid-speed stroad, not pedestrian friendly, lots of shops that are boarded up or in poor condition, and nothing that interesting in terms of retail or food. I think it’s fair to say I’m not a fan of grit for grits sake, and maybe during the summer the number and diversity of people makes it interesting? But isnt’t that everywhere in Toronto? Just can’t see it being high on my list of things to check out. Is it like Vancouver’s Commercial Drive but longer?

If that’s our bar for urbanity in Canada - run down one and two storey buildings along car dominated streets maybe NotJustBikes was on to something. That being said, I think there are great neighbourhoods in downtown Vancouver, I’m just not sure why folks go on about car dominated neighbourhoods. Greater diversity and more affordable, ok that’s good, but is that it?

• Video Link

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by zoomer

If that’s our bar for urbanity in Canada - run down one and two storey buildings along car dominated streets maybe NotJustBikes was on to something. That being said, I think there are great neighbourhoods in downtown Vancouver, I’m just not sure why folks go on about car dominated neighbourhoods. Greater diversity and more affordable, ok that’s good, but is that it?

The problem with this type of discussion is that there are a lot of things that can make a city interesting, exciting, and enjoyable beyond utilitarian traits that some urban enthusiasts focus on. It reminds me of the lists ranking the cities with the highest quality of life. You always see people commenting that they wouldn't be interested in living in many of the listed cities since they're chosen solely on the basic of practical, functional things while ignoring stuff like uniqueness, charisma and energy.

Being in a city that one is passionate about makes up for a lot of potential shortcomings, but the things people are passionate about are much harder to quantify. That's sometimes because people's tastes vary more than their functional needs, but also because the things that make people passionate about cities are just more complex. They're mixtures of things ranging from architecture, natural landscape, culture, scents, and sounds. And sometimes just the general ambiance and gestalt of the place. Probably why the term "a certain je ne sais quoi" is so enduring. The NJB host may be genuinely passionate about things like well designed pedestrian infrastructure and bike lanes, but that's not the case for most people.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by zoomer

So, I’m planning a 7-10 day trip to Toronto in May, and I’m pretty excited about exploring it in a fair bit of detail based on the time I have.

Now, this afternoon I was watching Ken Continuum’s (don’t watch him much, usually I’ll catch Johnny Strides a couple times a week) live early evening street walk in Toronto from Midtown to Little Jamaica, probably around 7:30ish p.m. Toronto time.

He said something that caught my attention in reply to a viewer comment about Vancouver:

“It’s a beautiful city, it just seemed a bit too sleepy for my liking, didn’t have the vitality and energy that Toronto has”.

“I’m more of an urbanity guy”.

You’ll find that around the 1:23:42 left in the live stream.

I think most would say that’s a fair assessment, but as I know Vancouver very well its my starting point for what I can expect in Toronto.

Later with 1:22:05 left he says as he’s walking up Eglington, he says “ok, we’re coming into Little Jamaica - this is the sort of neighbourhood you’ll never find in Vancouver”.

True?

His walk is at night so it’s hard to see a lot to be fair, and it’s a Monday in January, but I’m not so sure what makes this neighbourhood that special. Is it something worth checking out? It feels like a mid-speed stroad, not pedestrian friendly, lots of shops that are boarded up or in poor condition, and nothing that interesting in terms of retail or food. I think it’s fair to say I’m not a fan of grit for grits sake, and maybe during the summer the number and diversity of people makes it interesting? But isnt’t that everywhere in Toronto? Just can’t see it being high on my list of things to check out. Is it like Vancouver’s Commercial Drive but longer?

If that’s our bar for urbanity in Canada - run down one and two storey buildings along car dominated streets maybe NotJustBikes was on to something. That being said, I think there are great neighbourhoods in downtown Vancouver, I’m just not sure why folks go on about car dominated neighbourhoods. Greater diversity and more affordable, ok that’s good, but is that it?

By something "you’ll never find in Vancouver" I'm guessing he means a Jamaican (or predominantly black) neighbourhood. Either that, or a relatively busy peripheral commercial area quite a ways outside of the city centre.

Just as far as urbanity goes, I'd say Eglinton is a pretty good comparison to Broadway in Vancouver: they're both major commercial strips built up along early 1900s streetcar routes (and both now awaiting long-anticipated subways to open), with a mix of low-slung older storefronts, post-war towers, and newer development. Neither are particularly attractive and can feel a bit stroad-y at times, but they're busy & interesting for a long stretch nonetheless.

Eglinton West (Little Jamaica) in particular though is also one of those places that can feel like a bit more than the sum of it's parts, particularly in the summer with its vibrant street life. Though it's suffered a bit in recent years due to the unending subway construction.


https://thelittlejamaica.com/be-inspired-by-culture/

[zoomer]

Nouvellecosse - Agree with those points. I guess I wasn't thinking that big picture, but more specifically about the Toronto neighborhoods Ken likes. Do they exist in Vancouver and are they really great or even good urbanism?

Cities do have a je ne sais quoi - that often takes decades to full appreciate as it's history becomes intertwined with your familiy’s own. I really appreciate the YouTube walking tour dudes who have a love for their city, it's comes through in their work.

Edit - thanks MonkeyRonin for the insights. And that explanation exactly matches what I saw on the video and the comparison to Broadway is helpful. If I was in Toronto longer I'd check out that area, but since I'm not I don't think it'll be on my list. So much more to see that's of more interest to me personally and a better pedestrian/urban experience.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Deer Lake to St Anthony is around 500 km I think. My guess is that any stretches without gas and basic services would be in the 100 km range at the very most. Maybe more in the 50-75 km range even.

In that sense, it's probably no worse than crossing Northern Ontario on the TCH (especially Ontario Highway 11).

I've driven throughout NL and the most remote drive that I remember was the highway to Harbour Breton. I think it took over 2 hours and there was nothing along the way.

The most famous remote stretch in Northern Ontario is Hwy 11 between Hearst and Longlac. I think it takes 2.5 hours and there are no places in between.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by zoomer

Nouvellecosse - Agree with those points. I guess I wasn't thinking that big picture, but more specifically about the Toronto neighborhoods Ken likes. Do they exist in Vancouver and are they really great or even good urbanism?

You won't find much of the old 19th-century, bricky, fine-grained sort of neighbourhoods that are great about Toronto in Vancouver (something I do often miss), but at the same time Vancouver still has some really special places like the West End, Gastown, or Fairview are great neighbourhoods in their own right and offer different forms of urbanity that Toronto doesn't. Meanwhile, there are places like Commercial Drive or Main St. that maybe don't have the best urbanity or architecture ever, but also ultimately coalesce into something with a unique character that is greater than the sum of their parts.

Without being too kumbaya about it, I think it's better to appreciate the unique qualities and differences that make cities what they are instead of trying to compare different places using the same measuring stick. Fair enough for someone to prefer one type of place over another, but at the extreme end you get guys like NJB who only seems to be able to appreciate places that fit into a very narrow set of criteria.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

You won't find much of the old 19th-century, bricky, fine-grained sort of neighbourhoods that are great about Toronto in Vancouver (something I do often miss), but at the same time Vancouver still has some really special places like the West End, Gastown, or Fairview are great neighbourhoods in their own right and offer different forms of urbanity that Toronto doesn't. Meanwhile, there are places like Commercial Drive or Main St. that maybe don't have the best urbanity or architecture ever, but also ultimately coalesce into something with a unique character that is greater than the sum of their parts.

Without being too kumbaya about it, I think it's better to appreciate the unique qualities and differences that make cities what they are instead of trying to compare different places using the same measuring stick. Fair enough for someone to prefer one type of place over another, but at the extreme end you get guys like NJB who only seems to be able to appreciate places that fit into a very narrow set of criteria.

A lot of Vancouver's commercial streets have that squatty one-story temporary look, probably because of zoning at the time, much being built when suburbs were everything, and even in truly urban neighbourhoods, apartments were built only on residential side streets. I've noticed this consistently changing for over two decades now, with most new construction on streets like Broadway being commercial with floors of residential above.

Davie Street with the outmoded single stories:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/FqUGFRMM7k3CZnWS9
Newer commercial / residential East Broadway:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/YJu4YCyQvKoEW1hE8

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Architype

A lot of Vancouver's commercial streets have that squatty one-story temporary look, probably because of zoning at the time, much being built when suburbs were everything, and even in truly urban neighbourhoods, apartments were built only on residential side streets. I've noticed this consistently changing for over two decades now, with most new construction on streets like Broadway being commercial with floors of residential above.

The city of Vancouver's arterial commercial streets were almost all developed before there was any zoning, and when developers could build apartments above commercial space if they chose. The single storey commercial buildings that you can find on Davie, Robson, Commercial, Main etc etc are almost all over 100 years old, and haven't redeveloped because they've remained as viable investments, and the disruption to the cash-flow, and additional expenditure hasn't been worth the owner redeveloping. Over the past 30 years that has been steadily changing, as residential rents have risen, so the extra value of the residential component makes it worth the risk. Allowing 6 storey wood frame changed the economics too (usually 5 wood on a concrete retail main floor). Sometimes structural issues with old buildings also prompt a redevelopment.

The saw-tooth character of many arterial streetcar streets is becoming more uniformly street-wall, but there are still many examples of single storey buildings. Here's a 1911 cinema on Commercial Drive, which has contemporary apartment blocks on either side, that became a furniture store and today is a pet store.



Image and history on Changing Vancouver.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Architype

A lot of Vancouver's commercial streets have that squatty one-story temporary look, probably because of zoning at the time, much being built when suburbs were everything, and even in truly urban neighbourhoods, apartments were built only on residential side streets. I've noticed this consistently changing for over two decades now, with most new construction on streets like Broadway being commercial with floors of residential above.

This seems to be the case in most of Canada--commercial streets that look sort of rundown and dog-eared (and short), but which still form the spines of good neighbourhoods. That's the case in big cities (Dundas Street in Toronto, Commercial Drive in Vancouver) and smaller scale (Agricola Street in Halifax).

To look on the bright side, it means there's a lot of potential in developing and improving these streets--though obviously a lot of pitfalls if it's done poorly.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by zoomer

So, I’m planning a 7-10 day trip to Toronto in May, and I’m pretty excited about exploring it in a fair bit of detail based on the time I have.

Now, this afternoon I was watching Ken Continuum’s (don’t watch him much, usually I’ll catch Johnny Strides a couple times a week) live early evening street walk in Toronto from Midtown to Little Jamaica, probably around 7:30ish p.m. Toronto time.

He said something that caught my attention in reply to a viewer comment about Vancouver:

“It’s a beautiful city, it just seemed a bit too sleepy for my liking, didn’t have the vitality and energy that Toronto has”.

“I’m more of an urbanity guy”.

You’ll find that around the 1:23:42 left in the live stream.

I think most would say that’s a fair assessment, but as I know Vancouver very well its my starting point for what I can expect in Toronto.

Later with 1:22:05 left he says as he’s walking up Eglington, he says “ok, we’re coming into Little Jamaica - this is the sort of neighbourhood you’ll never find in Vancouver”.

True?

His walk is at night so it’s hard to see a lot to be fair, and it’s a Monday in January, but I’m not so sure what makes this neighbourhood that special. Is it something worth checking out? It feels like a mid-speed stroad, not pedestrian friendly, lots of shops that are boarded up or in poor condition, and nothing that interesting in terms of retail or food. I think it’s fair to say I’m not a fan of grit for grits sake, and maybe during the summer the number and diversity of people makes it interesting? But isnt’t that everywhere in Toronto? Just can’t see it being high on my list of things to check out. Is it like Vancouver’s Commercial Drive but longer?

If that’s our bar for urbanity in Canada - run down one and two storey buildings along car dominated streets maybe NotJustBikes was on to something. That being said, I think there are great neighbourhoods in downtown Vancouver, I’m just not sure why folks go on about car dominated neighbourhoods. Greater diversity and more affordable, ok that’s good, but is that it?

• Video Link

I'm amused he considered Vancouver a bit too sleepy, argues that he's more of 'an urbanity guy', then goes on to gloat about Eglinton like it's some urbanist paradise. Eglinton itself is underwhelming and sleepy .... unless we're talking about the insane amount of space devoted to cars.

Eglinton is a noisy car dominated thoroughfare with impossibly narrow sidewalks, a depressing public realm, and lined with 1-3 floor ramshackle buildings and retail for miles in each direction. It's true that the retail is finely grained but why on earth would one go there by choice?

If you're here for a few weeks, walking along Eglinton is fine in that it would give you a sense of what Toronto arterial roads look and feel like. As you're only visiting for a week I'd skip places like that entirely. And agree, by Canadian standards Eglinton might rank as good urbanity but I'd never in a million years send an international traveller there. It has the potential to one day be an appealing urban street but it's got a LONG LONG LONG way to go.

[Nouvellecosse]

I don't think Ken was suggesting that Eglinton is some epitome of urbanism or a major attraction etc. He was just pointing out that he likes larger cities and with Toronto being similarly urban for its size but much larger than Vancouver, it has some things that Vancouver doesn't. Regardless of any shortcomings Eglinton might have, it still has a fairly substantial 9ish kilometer commercial strip with businesses mostly built in an urban format with storefronts lining the street rather than in a more suburban strip mall or big box format (which it also has outside the urban section).

While Eglinton may be a good comparison with the Broadway corridor, Eglinton at its closest is about 7km from Union station while the Broadway corridor is only around as far from Waterfront station as Bloor Street is from Union. Eglinton would be like having a corridor as substantial as Broadway or Eglinton down on 49th Avenue stretching from Marine drive to Elliott Street. So that would be mainly an issue of scale which, for a self-professed "big city person," tends to matter. In Canada, A Vancouver-sized city would have trouble delivering that.

[softee]

haha My response to the guy in the chat of my livestream about Vancouver vs Toronto was partly motivated by his trollish comment that he was happy to be living in Vancouver and that "Toronto is a dump". But it's true that Vancouver as a city seems sleepier than Toronto, IMO.

Toronto is just a much faster paced city, with a lot more going on and where places stay open later and all that other stuff that often comes with being a big, dynamic (and somewhat dysfunctional) city.

Regarding Little Jamaica, I was referring to it being a black owned business district on a long commercial street of finely grained 100 year old 2 or 3 storey brick storefronts with apartments above far away from downtown (and with many new mid-rise residential buildings underway & a rapid transit line underneath hopefully opening soon). To the East of Little Jamaica long Eglinton I walked through Upper Village, which has many Jewish owned shops and restaurants along the Northern edge of Forest Hill. My comment about urbanity was not about Eglinton Ave itself, but rather all of Toronto's old, urban & walkable commercial strips (of which there are many!).

I enjoyed my visit to Vancouver in late 2022 and praised much about it in the videos & livestream I did there, but it just lacked the big city oomph that Toronto has, which is not surprising since it's a much smaller and less substantial city. In one of my videos I did say that I could live in Vancouver, but I'd only want to live in the downtown peninsula. That being said, I'd love to go back to Vancouver and explore more of the city!

[Nouvellecosse]

^ Oh alright. Well I guess I can put my pitch fork back in storage for the moment. Still glad a bought it thought since I never know what you'll come out with.

[Docere]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the Van equivalent of Forest Hill and the old borough of York is. It's not a tourist area, but I think Eglinton West is a good area to explore if you just want to see what some neighborhoods look like on the ground. Still pretty urban but on the borderline.

[zoomer]

Softee is Ken Continuum?! Awesome! Not often we get to hear directly from the horse’s mouth so to speak and what you really meant Not that you’re a horse - I see you as the rock and roll polite bad boy of walking tours - well at least compared to Strides.

Maybe one day you should do a stream with paying tourists as part of your walk - has that been done before?

Anyways, thanks everyone - helpful stuff, I definitely have a better understanding now. And yes, the main reason I’m going to Toronto is to experience the big city omph - which might be too much for me coming from little ol’ Victoria. I’d love to go to Tokyo as well, but that too could just be too overwhelming, unless I plan/pace it right.

Softee - next time you’re in Vancouver you should hook up (not in that way..) with a Vancouver local who can take you a great walking tour with lots of urbanity that extends beyond downtown. That being said, I agree - the only area I’d want to live is the downtown peninsula and Kitsilano. But I’d only ever want to live downtown in every Canadian city, as I do in Victoria.