Calgary Street Car

evolv · #1 Posted **Oct 4, 2013, 7:09 PM**

I thought I would start a thread regarding the Calgary Street Car that is currently undergoing a small and vague study according to the herald. The study is due in early 2014 and next step would be a more detailed study.

I live in the Beltline and would be a big fan of this project as I think it would help knit the community together. I don't think buses can do this; not exactly sure why but my guess is it has a lot to do with the public's perception of the bus.

I envision one day there being 4 lines:

17th Ave Line - Running from Westbrook to Stampede (mentioned in CH article as being considered)

4th St Line - Running from Eau Claire to Elbow Drive (also mentioned in CH article as being considered)

14th St W/Marda Line - Running from near SAIT to 33 St SW to Marda Loop

Kensington Rd Line - Running from 10th St to 19th St NW

Other thoughts? Pipe dream?

DizzyEdge · #2 Posted **Oct 4, 2013, 7:47 PM**

I really like streetcars, but what would be the compelling reason to have one on any of these routes rather than a bus?
To me the big plus with a streetcar is the ride quality. Smooth acceleration and deceleration, and a smooth ride. Street cars also have a feel of higher quality, because the smoother ride means a quieter ride, whereas a bus is like a noisy rattle machine.

Could you get the best of both worlds for less cost and more flexibility by buying buses with the best suspension and gearing (CVT?) you can get?

MasterG · #3 Posted **Oct 4, 2013, 8:21 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by evolv

I thought I would start a thread regarding the Calgary Street Car that is currently undergoing a small and vague study according to the herald. The study is due in early 2014 and next step would be a more detailed study.

I live in the Beltline and would be a big fan of this project as I think it would help knit the community together. I don't think buses can do this; not exactly sure why but my guess is it has a lot to do with the public's perception of the bus.

I envision one day there being 4 lines:

17th Ave Line - Running from Westbrook to Stampede (mentioned in CH article as being considered)

4th St Line - Running from Eau Claire to Elbow Drive (also mentioned in CH article as being considered)

14th St W/Marda Line - Running from near SAIT to 33 St SW to Marda Loop

Kensington Rd Line - Running from 10th St to 19th St NW

Other thoughts? Pipe dream?

I like the routes, but there would be some interesting challenges for conflicts. If you are envisoning a Toronto style routes that would work, but there would be some serious pressures to avoid taking the road-space / parking. It would have to be a mixed-traffic route, particularly on the 17th / 14th street lines. Without strong culture around it or any specific ROW dedicated, I can't see the lines having a positive impact on commute times.

Transit tends to work when it takes advantage of things cars can't do. I would amend the 14th street line and have it copy the Route 13 (i think) that cuts through Mt Royal onto 8th Street. That would be a serious boost to Marda loop and take better advantage of the dumb Mount Royal rich persons-only restricted access. it could go down 8th and then on 10th street to SAIT.

I think there may have been an old line that did exactly that.

Good thoughts though! I would love to see it. Especially the Westbrook to stampede route

andasen · #4 Posted **Oct 4, 2013, 8:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterG

I like the routes, but there would be some interesting challenges for conflicts. If you are envisoning a Toronto style routes that would work, but there would be some serious pressures to avoid taking the road-space / parking. It would have to be a mixed-traffic route, particularly on the 17th / 14th street lines. Without strong culture around it or any specific ROW dedicated, I can't see the lines having a positive impact on commute times.

Transit tends to work when it takes advantage of things cars can't do. I would amend the 14th street line and have it copy the Route 13 (i think) that cuts through Mt Royal onto 8th Street. That would be a serious boost to Marda loop and take better advantage of the dumb Mount Royal rich persons-only restricted access. it could go down 8th and then on 10th street to SAIT.

I think there may have been an old line that did exactly that.

Good thoughts though! I would love to see it. Especially the Westbrook to stampede route

Agreed on the Westbrook-Stampede Route. In the super long term it would be awesome to see it somehow get through the stampede grounds & river to connect to crossroads and on then on to 17th ave E?

Wigs · #5 Posted **Oct 4, 2013, 9:58 PM**

I've been thinking about this since shortly after moving here in 2009.
Here's my fantasy Beltline/EV streetcar proposal. just for fun/fantasy but I think Beltline and East Village would benefit greatly from having at least 1 streetcar line (after all Beltline was named after a former streetcar line!)

Calgary-Beltline-EV-streetcar-FullSize by OneAndOnlyWigs, on Flickr

Spring2008 · #6 Posted **Oct 4, 2013, 10:21 PM**

Would love to see that 4 street route from The Bow to Elbow River.

Jimby · #7 Posted **Oct 4, 2013, 10:25 PM**

The problem with street cars is they get stuck in traffic just like buses do, unless they get a dedicated right of way which is unlikely now.

MasterG · #8 Posted **Oct 4, 2013, 10:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by andasen

Agreed on the Westbrook-Stampede Route. In the super long term it would be awesome to see it somehow get through the stampede grounds & river to connect to crossroads and on then on to 17th ave E?

I think as the big projects become bigger (i.e. SE LRT) and more expensive, the best cost benefit is in smaller capacity routes. Like these streetcars plans. It would work well for an replacement of route 3 south of DT to Chinook or so. Probably enough capacity to dedicate a lane to it and fits better with the communities it passes through than something larger and high-capacity.

It would be nice to connect the different backbones of our system's LRT lines with smaller capacity ones that cut between. Connecting Marda loop better with downtown would be an easy win as long as the route doesn't rely on the 17th / 14th intersection.

RicoLance21 · #9 Posted **Oct 5, 2013, 1:32 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimby

The problem with street cars is they get stuck in traffic just like buses do, unless they get a dedicated right of way which is unlikely now.

Bring back the trolleybuses. Just like the C-Train, an entire streetcar line can get disrupted if there is an accident on the line.

Bus:
Ride quietness: fair
Ride smoothness: poor (due to engine vibration)
Flexibility at detours: excellent
Contingency buses: not required

Trolleybus:
Ride quietness: excellent
Ride smoothness: fair
Flexibility at detours: very good (requires battery for off-wire operation)
Contingency buses: not required

Street car:
Ride quietness: excellent
Ride smoothness: excellent
Flexibility at detours: poor
Contingency buses: required

DizzyEdge · #10 Posted **Oct 6, 2013, 2:45 AM**

What about the ride smoothness on a hybrid bus, wondering if it might be close to a trolly bus without needing the power infrastructure

para transit fellow · #11 Posted **Oct 6, 2013, 3:23 AM**

With a trolley bus, I believe you still need a contingency fleet of diesels.

RicoLance21 · #12 Posted **Oct 7, 2013, 3:08 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

With a trolley bus, I believe you still need a contingency fleet of diesels.

While the need for a contingency fleet of diesels seems logical, that is a must have only for trolleybuses without on-board batteries. I believe modern trolleybuses have came a very long way in terms of reliability.

For example, I believe that if a new trolleybus service is implemented, the feeder cables would likely be underground, increasing reliability due to less exposure to the elements. Also, it is possible to have feeder cables that are as reliable as the feeder cables that power the C-Train system. Personally, I am not sure how reliable are the cables that power the C-Train system, but I believe the contingency buses have been brought out were mostly due to track maintenance, collision on the track and LRT vehicle failure. I think the latest LRT power outage incident was the Alberta flood this past June.

Modern trolleybuses now have on-board batteries for off-wire operation for about two kilometers. Older trolleybuses don't have batteries, which means whenever there is a detour that made trolleybuses impossible to manoeuver without causing a mess on the overhead, backup diesels would have to be brought out. That should not be a problem with modern trolleybuses as long as it can go off-wire for less than a kilometer. If a big truck snag an overhead, it can shut down a small section of the overhead circuit, but modern trolleybuses can continue to operate without power until a still-energized section of the overhead is reached where it can be rewired.

Modern trolleybuses can automatically lower its poles down quickly when a dewirement is detected. This would prevent the poles from tangling the overhead wires and pulling them down.

In my opinion, I think that due to the reasons described above, having contingency buses to back up a modern trolleybus fleet does not seem to make a lot of sense.

RicoLance21 · #13 Posted **Oct 7, 2013, 3:13 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

What about the ride smoothness on a hybrid bus, wondering if it might be close to a trolly bus without needing the power infrastructure

I found that while hybrid buses have a slightly smoother ride, the ride quietness is not that much better than regular diesels. It is more noticeable when these buses are idling. I have ridden a few hybrid buses before.

What I should have added on the comparisons list is the noise contribution to the surroundings. Trolleybuses are the quietest followed closely by streetcars due to the rubber tires.

As for power infrastructure, streetcars need overhead too--nuff said.

I won't get into the future electric buses like those that ABB came up with recently. The reality is these technologies are new--expect the unit cost to be astronomical.

WhipperSnapper · #14 Posted **Oct 7, 2013, 3:26 AM**

Trolley buses really are the worst of both worlds. You have the low capacity of a bus with the pricey overhead infrastructure of a streetcar.

RicoLance21 · #15 Posted **Oct 7, 2013, 3:41 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Trolley buses really are the worst of both worlds. You have the low capacity of a bus with the pricey overhead infrastructure of a streetcar.

You also have the manoeuverability of a bus without the pricey steel track infrastructure of a streetcar.

Trolleybus, like buses, does not compromise road capacity. Streetcar does due to stops, unless drivers can adjust to the following habit:
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dan...ion2.7.7.shtml

para transit fellow · #16 Posted **Oct 7, 2013, 7:45 PM**

One icy snow storm and the catenary overhead gets gummed up and the poles don't work.

I once got a tour of Vancouver's trolly bus barn. From what they told me, the batteries are really limited in range. AND have to be serviced/ replaced more frequently than Hybrid bus batteries.

Has any transit property managed to use underground (induction) in ice and snow?

Calgarian · #17 Posted **Oct 7, 2013, 8:36 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

One icy snow storm and the catenary overhead gets gummed up and the poles don't work.

I once got a tour of Vancouver's trolly bus barn. From what they told me, the batteries are really limited in range. AND have to be serviced/ replaced more frequently than Hybrid bus batteries.

Has any transit property managed to use underground (induction) in ice and snow?

Doesn't Edmonton have trolly buses?