Lrt

[Waterlooer]

Hello! Kitchener/Waterloo (in Ontario) is going to get LRT by 2014. I was wondering if LRT in Calgary is successful and your thoughts on it... thanks!

[Wooster]

Calgary proves that LRT can be extremely successful in a relatively small, post war city. It first implemented it at a time when the city wasn't much bigger than the Kitchener-Waterloo area is now.

However, there were a few really substantional factors in this success (~270,000 trips each weekday) that are sometimes overlooked by outsiders. Calgary has a highly centralized white-collar workforce in the downtown. This makes planning for transit infrastructure relatively easy compared to more poly-centric regions like K-W. Second, dating back to the mid 1960s, the City of Calgary has severely restricted parking supply, which has made parking in downtown Calgary the most expensive in Canada and some of the most expensive day-time parking in North America. This alone has made LRT viable and competitive in a city like this.

I don't know much about the K-W region aside from a couple of brief visits, but it seems to have a very different regional structure, employment patterns (including the availability and abundance of free and cheap parking) and so forth, which may present some obstacles to its success.

[frinkprof]

Hello Waterlooer.

I had heard that Kitchener/Waterloo is getting LRT, so congratulations to you guys.

You may want to check out the discussion and information in the following threads:

Calgary Public Transit (General transit thread)

West LRT Thread (Specific thread about the West LRT project, Calgary's 4th LRT line that is currently under construction)

To answer your question, LRT is hugely successful in Calgary. It consistently has among the highest riderships of all LRT systems in North America. It is also one of the first modern LRT systems to be built in North America. In the last decade, it has seen modest expansion that has ramped up a bit with the construction of the all-new West LRT line.

If you have any specific questions, there's a good chance that some of the forumers here can give you an answer or at least point you in the right direction.

[lubicon]

No question LRT has been very successful in Calgary. However Wooster has made some very good points as to why. You may want to wander over to the Edmonton forum and ask your questions there too. Similar sized city with LRT initiated at roughly the same time as Calgary's (actually a little earlier) but a city with a vastly different employment distribution pattern than Calgary.

[SFUVancouver]

Another important factor in the success of LRT in Calgary was the City's forethought to reserve rights of way for the LRT that radiate out of the CBD. These reserved rights of way dramatically improve the economics of each wave of expansion.

[freeweed]

Calgary also actually built out the LRT, instead of spending the farm on burying a kilometer of it.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Calgary also actually built out the LRT, instead of spending the farm on burying a kilometer of it.

To date that is. The big expenditure to bury is inevitible though.

[Waterlooer]

Thanks everyone!

[xAnderblaze]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

Another important factor in the success of LRT in Calgary was the City's forethought to reserve rights of way for the LRT that radiate out of the CBD. These reserved rights of way dramatically improve the economics of each wave of expansion.

What is the minimum width that the CTrain RoW can be?

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by xAnderblaze

What is the minimum width that the CTrain RoW can be?

12 meters. 20 meters needed for a station.

http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/t...formation.html

I think they usually reserve a little more than that though.

[mersar]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

12 meters. 20 meters needed for a station.

http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/t...formation.html

I think they usually reserve a little more than that though.

Yep. A quick google earth measure of the NE right of way through Saddleridge looks to be about 18m (though I may have randomly measured where the station is going)

[ClaytonA]

SPC T&T report on possible infill stations for the current LRT system.
All are on the Red Line, Northland Dr, 50 Ave S, and Fisher Park.

The Northland Dr one would presumably connect the RouteAhead's Shaganappi BRT and direct it toward the U of C and Foothills Hospital Complex down 37 St NW (future plans to connect through to 32 Ave NW in University District plans).
In x years, an LRT could run from Sage Hills down Shaganappi -Northland-37 St NW - 37 St SW - and into the SW Ring Road corridor where room was left for a future LRT right of way.

50 Ave S is office/light industrial and has a fair number of jobs. My impression is while Ward 9 may support redevelopment, that the new councillor in Ward 3 (west side of MacLeod Tr) would resist redevelopment of single family detached homes based on R2Engage support. Fisher Park would also be interesting as there are offices along MacLeod Tr there, and light industrial on the east side of the CPR. A pedestrian bridge with an LRT station could really change the east-west accessibility there-the CPR/LRT is a huge barrier coupled with MacLeod Trail.

Links:

https://web.archive.org/web/20171215...cumentId=32113

https://web.archive.org/web/20171215...cumentId=32115

Lots of pro's and con's in the second document, a station spacing analysis, and location maps.

[YYCguys]

I can see the value in adding a station at Northland Drive. Perhaps that will help the Northland Village Mall redevelopment along, which seems to have stalled since Whole Foods pulled out of the plan. 50th Avenue would also be a good station to add if ridership levels would be sufficient to support it (39th avenue station doesn’t seem to get a whole bunch of users so not sure if 50th avenue would suffer the same fate or not).

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

I can see the value in adding a station at Northland Drive. Perhaps that will help the Northland Village Mall redevelopment along, which seems to have stalled since Whole Foods pulled out of the plan. 50th Avenue would also be a good station to add if ridership levels would be sufficient to support it (39th avenue station doesn’t seem to get a whole bunch of users so not sure if 50th avenue would suffer the same fate or not).

Yep, feel exactly the same. Northland probably would have been reasonable to have been built when the rest of that leg was, 50th I'm less convinced.

[rotten42]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

I can see the value in adding a station at Northland Drive. Perhaps that will help the Northland Village Mall redevelopment along, which seems to have stalled since Whole Foods pulled out of the plan. 50th Avenue would also be a good station to add if ridership levels would be sufficient to support it (39th avenue station doesn’t seem to get a whole bunch of users so not sure if 50th avenue would suffer the same fate or not).

If they ever get the redevelopment for the condos on that site going then I agree it would be a good idea. Otherwise it wouldn't be a good value for the money.

[ClaytonA]

Brentwood strikes me as very BANANA. But mixed use density makes sense there. Community website indicates some construction is to be done/under way.

It could be compared with Lougheed Mall in Burnaby location-wise in some ways with the North Crosstown Express bus and a future Shaganappi Trail/37 St BRT. Transit node. Proximity to post-secondary. Not much office. Freeway close by. Outside downtown core, but certainly not urban fringe.

Nobody thinks the Fisher Park station makes sense?

[YYCguys]

Originally Posted by ClaytonA

Nobody thinks the Fisher Park station makes sense?

What is the typical industry-wide accepted spacing distance between stations? Is the location of the proposed Fisher Park station abiding by that standard?

[milomilo]

Brentwood makes the most sense to me and does seem like an obvious gap. The other two could make sense in the future, but given the glacial pace of TOD around the existing stations, I think we should focus on building those areas out fully before we even need to think about building those two.

[CrossedTheTracks]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

What is the typical industry-wide accepted spacing distance between stations? Is the location of the proposed Fisher Park station abiding by that standard?

Appendix 1 of the 2nd document posted by ClaytonA gives a survey of spacing from other systems.

But really, the answer to that is going to be, "it depends on context". Look at Bloor subway in Toronto; many stations are merely 600 m apart. But outside nearly every such station is an urbain main street with retail, an "important" street in the grid carrying nice straight bus routes, low-mid rise density in some cases, and plenty of high density single/duplex family homes in every direction. And not just "close to" those stations, but literally right outside them, with no freeways to cross. In one sense, it slows down the system, but the overall usefulness of the system benefits.

Conversely, taking 600 m station spacing and continuously plonking that in the middle of Crowchild Trail would be bonkers.

To me, the case for Fisher Park feels a bit weak without some higher density of commercial or residential being at least hypothetically possible.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by CrossedTheTracks

Appendix 1 of the 2nd document posted by ClaytonA gives a survey of spacing from other systems.

But really, the answer to that is going to be, "it depends on context". Look at Bloor subway in Toronto; many stations are merely 600 m apart. But outside nearly every such station is an urbain main street with retail, an "important" street in the grid carrying nice straight bus routes, low-mid rise density in some cases, and plenty of high density single/duplex family homes in every direction. And not just "close to" those stations, but literally right outside them, with no freeways to cross. In one sense, it slows down the system, but the overall usefulness of the system benefits.

Conversely, taking 600 m station spacing and continuously plonking that in the middle of Crowchild Trail would be bonkers.

To me, the case for Fisher Park feels a bit weak without some higher density of commercial or residential being at least hypothetically possible.

Yep, I think the spacing of the existing LRT is good. Bloor-like on 7th avenue, to Go Train-like by the time you hit Crowchild, Macleod Tr south of Cemetary Hill, etc.

The one part of the greenline which approximates Bloor is Centre Street south of McKnight. I'm a bit wary of the 1200m distance between stations, but I suppose being that it's surface additional stations could be added as it densifies.

Also re: the housing around Bloor. Although many have a 'house' format, either duplex, row housing, or infill width sfh, they often have 2, even 3 units.

This view might have 20-40 units depending on configuration

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.66072...7i13312!8i6656