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  #221  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2020, 1:52 AM
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Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
So your photo makes me wonder why the place under my stairs is also full in spite of the fact I have no kids and no "kid stuff". I even rent a roughly 4'x6' storage space in the building from the HOA and it's packed full too--and still no "kid stuff".
Because the point wasn't about kids or kids stuff, rather it was that most people tend to accumulate shit up to their carrying capacity, whatever that may be, whether it's a 500 SF studio, or a 6,000 SF mcmansion.

That said, a 2 bed/2 bath 1,200 SF apartment is probably easier from a functional standpoint for a single or DINKS than for a family of five, but either way, shit will be accumulated.

And it's totally possible for a family of 5 to live successfully in a 1,200 SF apartment, they'll simply be forced to part ways with way more under-used crap than a more typical american family in a large suburban house.
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  #222  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2020, 11:22 AM
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And it's totally possible for a family of 5 to live successfully in a 1,200 SF apartment, they'll simply be forced to part ways with way more under-used crap than a more typical american family in a large suburban house.
We know a family of five in a 600 sq. ft. apartment. And the parents are professionals that could afford a larger place, but they have a great deal on their current place and it's zoned to arguably the best elementary in Brooklyn.

Their kids are relatively young still, but they have done a fantastic job with utilizing space.
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  #223  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2020, 1:18 PM
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^ My wife had a colleague who had a family of 5 (all 3 kids were very young) in an 800 SF highrise condo in the south loop. The husband worked for BofA and got transferred to Charlotte where they bought a suburban house.

So it can certainly be done, but I doubt many US professional class people raise large families in small little apartments like that from birth to 18.

The only place in the US where that might happen with any kind of regularity is NYC.
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  #224  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2020, 2:37 PM
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I can speak to the fact that it can be done from experience. It is hard especially with kids, but you learn to adapt. We love having a single-family home now, but we still operate in many ways as if we live in an urban space just because we prefer it that way - to reduce clutter, collection of junk, etc. That said, we miss the walkability of everything, especially for restaurants, groceries, etc. There is definitely a trade-off.

I can say that for a family of five (or even three or four), it would be much more difficult to go from suburban to urban than the other way simple because of accumulation of stuff and being used to having more space. Many folks who moved over to Asia after having a family struggled with apartment living for these two reasons more than even the noise, lack of privacy, etc. Not to say the other things weren't issues, but they were lower than they would have expected.
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  #225  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2020, 3:01 PM
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You can buy triple bunk beds, double desks, and all kinds of adaptations for small-footprint family living. But, yeah, it isn't really the typical American way, at least in recent decades.
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  #226  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2020, 3:14 PM
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Even in the Brady Bunch, Bobby and Peter bunked together until Greg moved into the attic

And that was 1970's Americana

Anything is possible!
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  #227  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 1:00 AM
canucklehead2 canucklehead2 is offline
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I've lived in everything from walk ups to townhouses, duplexes and houses. Currently in a second floor flat in a three story walk up... Frankly if I had kids I'd prefer a townhouse/brownstone set up with at least a small/secured backyard area to hang out in. Otherwise? Penthouse in a skyscraper. Being in a wood walk up sucks with noisy neighbours, cut rate construction and aging pipes...
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  #228  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 4:57 AM
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Currently in a second floor flat in a three story walk up... Frankly if I had kids I'd prefer a townhouse/brownstone set up with at least a small/secured backyard area to hang out in.
Do flat buildings in Edmonton typically not have any front or back yard space?
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  #229  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2020, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
We know a family of five in a 600 sq. ft. apartment. And the parents are professionals that could afford a larger place, but they have a great deal on their current place and it's zoned to arguably the best elementary in Brooklyn.

Their kids are relatively young still, but they have done a fantastic job with utilizing space.

Made me think of this 492 sqft, 3-bedroom (with transforming 4th guest room) apartment in Hong Kong that I saw today: https://www.dezeen.com/2020/10/14/sm...ment-interior/








A bit small for me, but pretty clever and well done.
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  #230  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2020, 2:29 AM
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^ that's some pretty damn efficient use of space, no doubt.

But having gone through 7 months of covid stupidity with constant family togetherness 24/7 with my family of 4, that's a bridge too tight for me in my current life situation, personally.

I'm not saying it can't work well for other families, but some of the "rooms" on that plan veer a little too close to prison cell for my american sensibilities.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Oct 15, 2020 at 3:15 AM.
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  #231  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2020, 2:44 PM
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That use of a floor as a closet is really interesting... not sure how well it would for someone as prone to spilling coffee as me.
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  #232  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2020, 9:25 PM
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That use of a floor as a closet is really interesting... not sure how well it would for someone as prone to spilling coffee as me.
yeah, the floor closets are really cool from a design perspective, but I can see all kinds of practical/functional issues.

what if you wanna throw an area rug down to quiet/soften your living space?

what if your son has just built an awesome train layout across the living room floor, but you daughter now wants to get her baby doll out of the floor closet? CONFLICT!

and speaking of spilled beverages, nothing on our planet creates more spills than a young child.
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  #233  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2020, 3:23 AM
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Yeah this also relies on a lower expectation for bed size. Looks like this apartment has 1 queen, 1 twin and a child-size bed even smaller than a twin. The foldaway fourth bed may be for a housekeeper... if this family can afford an architect and custom built-ins everywhere, I'm sure they are at least upper-middle class. It is not uncommon for middle-class HK families to have a housekeeper even in such a tiny apartment (that also answers your question about spills!)

Even crazier, this is not central HK. It is a greenfield development just outside the airport. In NY or Chicago this would be like Rockaway Beach or Park Ridge. I don't know why I'm surprised though, in a totally unregulated market there might in fact be highrise-level demand to live near a major hub airport especially among those who travel for work and air industry workers.
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  #234  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2020, 4:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
Because the point wasn't about kids or kids stuff, rather it was that most people tend to accumulate shit up to their carrying capacity, whatever that may be, whether it's a 500 SF studio, or a 6,000 SF mcmansion.

That said, a 2 bed/2 bath 1,200 SF apartment is probably easier from a functional standpoint for a single or DINKS than for a family of five, but either way, shit will be accumulated.

And it's totally possible for a family of 5 to live successfully in a 1,200 SF apartment, they'll simply be forced to part ways with way more under-used crap than a more typical american family in a large suburban house.
You didn't see my smile at the fact that all your "things" pulled out from under the stairs seemed to be for your kids. I found that a little grin-worthy, being someone who has the same issue but no kids and nothing for kids. I understand the point. In what I thought was a light-hearted way I was reinforcing it.
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  #235  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2020, 4:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
^ that's some pretty damn efficient use of space, no doubt.

But having gone through 7 months of covid stupidity with constant family togetherness 24/7 with my family of 4, that's a bridge too tight for me in my current life situation, personally.

I'm not saying it can't work well for other families, but some of the "rooms" on that plan veer a little too close to prison cell for my american sensibilities.
Most westerners have a thing called "furniture" which would have to be moved to open the "closets". I would find that a bit more than inconvenient. The unit would have to come with a chiropractor on retainer.
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  #236  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2020, 5:26 PM
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We had our first child while living in a condo downtown. We were somewhat excited about doing something different.....but then the reality hit hard. The second we got home from the hospital it became a space crunch. Our 2 bedroom condo was 930sqft, so it was larger than most.

We moved into a decent sized two story home built in 79' when our oldest was about 8 months.

Looking back, it was a terrible decision to attempt to live downtown with a kid. The plan was always to have a couple kids and move into a house when the second was a toddler.

Frankly, we would have been robbing our children of their childhoods. The massive swing set and play house i have built in the back yard, our inside playhouse...that has been hours of entertainment for them and some of the best moments as parents watching them realize they can stick their little heads out the windows and always get a reaction from us, the dinning room turned into an art studio, the basement lego room, building my oldest her "big girl bed", the garden, the hours upon hours upon hours in the sandbox in the back yard, the oldest washing her trike on the driveway while i wash one of our vehicles, building snow forts in the backyard.... etc etc.

Next year, when our youngest will be old enough to learn to skate i'll put in backyard rink. that's going to be a lot of fun.
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  #237  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2020, 5:52 PM
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we would have been robbing our children of their childhoods.
no hyperbole there



there are trade-offs to everything in life.

you obviously like the trade-offs of the decision you and your wife made for where to raise your family. and that's totally fine.

i obviously like the trade-offs of the decision my wife and i made for where to raise our family. and that's also totally fine.

however, i don't think that i would want to live where you live, and you probably would not want to live where i live.

and that's ok.... different strokes for different folks.




children who are lucky enough to get loving, caring, attentive parents who can provide for them are robbed of nothing.

it doesn't matter if you're in the middle of manhattan or on a 5,000 acre wyoming ranch or anywhere in between.
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"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.

Last edited by Steely Dan; Oct 16, 2020 at 6:28 PM.
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  #238  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2020, 9:40 PM
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That said, we're on the ground floor of our 3-flat and we use our building's back patio and front yard much more than the other residents do. Some of that is because it's simply easier for us to access, being a mere 7 risers down from our front/back doors, but it's mostly because we have the only little kids in the building. Top floor are DINKs, middle floor has 14 year old twins, and then us with our 6 and 4 year olds.
well now i'm feeling shameful for being a bit pre-judgy about the DINKs on the top floor of our building.

they are DINKs no more! the wife just informed me that they're expecting a little baby girl early next year.

together for many years in their mid-30s, with two cats and a dog, i just assumed they were gonna continue doing the "animal family" thing that a lot of city couples seem to do these days.

i guess "lockdown babies" are gonna be a thing.

and now our small-scale multi-family 3-flat will be full of actual families with children, which will be fun!


(now if only the owner of the 2-flat nextdoor to us would do something, ANYTHING, with his property. it's been 100% vacant since we moved in nearly 3 years ago! he ain't living there, doesn't rent out the two units, doesn't airB&B it, and has paid out at least $40,000 in property taxes over the past 3 years with absolutely zero rental income to cover it. i do. not. understand.)
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"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.

Last edited by Steely Dan; Oct 29, 2020 at 1:16 AM.
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