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  #21  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2014, 7:04 PM
ukw ukw is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
People generally want pretty places, sunny places or economically/culturally dynamic places as their ideal towns. And, if they're working age, they want good jobs. These surveys are always ranking Helsinki or Canberra or whatever boring Anglosphere/Nordic cities over places where people actually want to live (places like Paris, or Venice, or Barcelona).
Going by your criteria, the average person has way more fun and pleasure in an Australian or Northern-European city (yes, even Helsinki) than they do in the average American city, where there is nothing to do, life is strictly regulated by a litany of laws regarding activities such as drinking or entertainment, and there is generally less real-life freedom (although possibly more political freedom). Worse food, no public transportation, a surprising persistence of religious laws, an unpleasant conformity with a lack of true culture, boredom, all conspire to make American cities much worse in comparison to the ones in .AU or Europe.

Good jobs are available aplenty in Germany:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/05/bu...of-europe.html
     
     
  #22  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2014, 7:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ukw View Post
Going by your criteria, the average person has way more fun and pleasure in an Australian or Northern-European city (yes, even Helsinki) than they do in the average American city, where there is nothing to do, life is strictly regulated by a litany of laws regarding activities such as drinking or entertainment, and there is generally less real-life freedom (although possibly more political freedom). Worse food, no public transportation, a surprising persistence of religious laws, an unpleasant conformity with a lack of true culture, boredom, all conspire to make American cities much worse in comparison to the ones in .AU or Europe.
This is basically all wrong, and silly, and this has nothing to do with Europe, but the Anglosphere, and Nordic countries.

Australia and Canada, and Nordic Europe, do not, on average, have better food, better transportation, more religious freedom, less conformity, than other first world nations.

Most of the things you listed, on average, are probably worse in those places, and in any case, they don't seem to figure into the calculation.
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Originally Posted by ukw View Post
Good jobs are available aplenty in Germany:
Germany isn't on the list. The German economy is not exactly strong right now anyways, BTW.
     
     
  #23  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2014, 7:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenmore View Post
you take a pool of cities over a certain size, cherry pick a few common indicators (gini, gdp growth, %in poverty, life expectancy/infant mortality,e tc) and a list pops out like this pretty easy.
And what size would that be?

Toronto, Canada 6.1M
Sydney, Australia 4.8M
Melbourne, Australia 4.4M
Vienna, Austria 2.6M
Vancouver, Canada 2.4M
Perth, Australia 2.0M
Auckland, New Zealand 1.5M
Helsinki, Finland 1.4M
Adelaide, Australia 1.3M
Calgary, Canada 1.2M

Karachi, Pakistan 23.5M
Lagos, Nigeria 21.0M
Dhaka, Bangladesh 19.0M
Abidjan, Ivory Coast 6.8M
Algiers, Algeria 4.5M
Damascus, Syria 4.5M
Douala, Cameroon 3.0M
Harare, Zimbabwe 2.8M
Tripoli, Libya 2.2M
Port Moresby, Papua New Guinea 0.4M


And what indicators would one "cherry pick" to determine liveability instead of the ones used?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Private Dick View Post
Whoa, careful with that inflammatory race-baiting!

The last few comments that suggested the "whiteness" of this list got deleted... which is an action that is really beyond the pale
But the top cities are all very multicultural cities and the bottom ones are largely monocultural. Comments about bias towards "whiteness" are incorrect and ridiculous.

Last edited by SHiRO; Aug 27, 2014 at 8:04 PM.
     
     
  #24  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2014, 7:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I'm not speaking for you or for me, obviously our personal preferences aren't relevant. And you would really, honestly rather live in Moldova than in the U.S.? I'm guessing no.

My point is that people generally want to live somewhere like San Diego and not Calgary or Adelaide or wherever. If you personally think California is a "military state" with "conservative right wing politics" and all the rest, then I'd say your views are far from the norm.

People generally want pretty places, sunny places or economically/culturally dynamic places as their ideal towns. And, if they're working age, they want good jobs. These surveys are always ranking Helsinki or Canberra or whatever boring Anglosphere/Nordic cities over places where people actually want to live (places like Paris, or Venice, or Barcelona).
Because San Diego is so much more beautiful than Calgary or Adelaide....try again. And neither of those cities have booming economies with so many good paying jobs that they can't fill them fast enough. Nobody wants to live in Calgary, population aprox 750 000 (1990) ---> 1.4 million (present). its nearly doubled in just over 20 years, must be an awful place to settle in. lol. Crawford you need to get out more man, and try not to assume your perfect ideals of weather, beauty , etc apply to everyone.
     
     
  #25  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2014, 8:10 PM
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The U.S. list (seen on the other thread) is proof of the questionable methodology. Pittsburgh (not saying its not a nice city, but..) ahead of Seattle and SF? Cmon.
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  #26  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2014, 8:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
You may be right if that's the methodology, but the metric is stupid. It's pretty much designed to favor the most boring cities in the Anglosphere and a few Northern European countries.

Wealth gap, especially, should not be included.There is nothing inherently "better" about having a smaller wealth gap. % poverty or something would be a good metric, because a place can have a huge wealth gap but a well-off poor cohort, or a small wealth gap and a struggling poor cohort.

Median income would be even better, but they will never use that, because they want to promote the Adelaides of the world over places people actually want to live (the San Diegos of the world).
Wow again with the trolling...

Are you seriously suggesting that Toronto, Sydney, Melbourne, Vienna, Vancouver, Helsinki and Auckland are more boring than San Diego?
And Perth, Adelaide and Calgary are at least on par.

Not to mention the cities just outside the top 10 which include Osaka, Stockholm, Montreal, Paris, Tokyo, Amsterdam, etc.

You don't know a fraction of what you pretend to know, especially not about cities and yet you continue to involve yourself in threads like these (which guarantees them a certain outcome).

San Diego is among the "Adelaides of the world"! And that is a compliment to both cities.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I'm not speaking for you or for me, obviously our personal preferences aren't relevant. And you would really, honestly rather live in Moldova than in the U.S.? I'm guessing no.

My point is that people generally want to live somewhere like San Diego and not Calgary or Adelaide or wherever. If you personally think California is a "military state" with "conservative right wing politics" and all the rest, then I'd say your views are far from the norm.

People generally want pretty places, sunny places or economically/culturally dynamic places as their ideal towns. And, if they're working age, they want good jobs. These surveys are always ranking Helsinki or Canberra or whatever boring Anglosphere/Nordic cities over places where people actually want to live (places like Paris, or Venice, or Barcelona).
And the ignorant continues...

First of all Paris is in the top 20 and Barcelona is in the top 30. And who wants to live in Venice?! The locals are abandoning it because it is becoming unliveable due to mass tourism and floodings.

Pretty sunny places with a good economy and dynamic cultural life? Dude that is Perth and Adelaide! Pretty with good economy and dynamic cultural life? That is Helsinki (and Zurich and Geneva etc). Good economy (and probably pretty and cultural too I dunno), that IS Calgary!

Moldova? Talk about "white" and unliveable. Just like Kiev which has fallen considerably on this index for obvious reasons...
     
     
  #27  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2014, 8:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
The U.S. list (seen on the other thread) is proof of the questionable methodology. Pittsburgh (not saying its not a nice city, but..) ahead of Seattle and SF? Cmon.
Actually, among these ridiculous lists we all love to hate... the methodology the EIU uses is probably the most robust of any of these "best" listings.

http://pages.eiu.com/rs/eiu2/images/...1jt6QEXw%3D%3D

Every city is assigned a rating of relative comfort for over 30 qualitative and quantitative factors across five broad categories: stability; healthcare; culture and environment; education; and infrastructure.
Each factor in a city is rated as acceptable, tolerable, uncomfortable, undesirable or intolerable.

For qualitative indicators, a rating is awarded based on the judgment of in-house analysts and in-city contributors. For quantitative indicators, a rating is calculated based on the relative performance of a number of external data points. The scores are then compiled and weighted to provide a score of 1–100, where 1 is considered intolerable and 100 is considered ideal. The liveability rating is provided both as an overall score and as a score for each category.
     
     
  #28  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2014, 8:43 PM
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^^^^lets face it, most american cities are auto depandant, and not really that walkable, at least in a comprehensive sense. mix that with high crime rates compared to rest of the developed world, crippling winter weather or overpopulation and drought and high costs of living, and ouila, no gold medal for us.
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  #29  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2014, 4:05 AM
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Funny how these lists place Vancouver always near the top but in Canadian surveys it always places at the bottom. That's because the Canadian surveys include this little thing called "cost of living" and there is no city in the country within a country mile of Vancouver when it comes to it's extreme cost of living coupled with low wages.

Vancouver has a lot going for it but according to the Canadian surveys your quality of life and standard of living will plunge if you moved to Vancouver.
     
     
  #30  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2014, 4:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
Proper Title: Cities the English Like.
The English like Canadian cities? They shit on them for the most part.
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  #31  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2014, 4:24 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
Why would Portland, OR or Seattle, WA not outrank Perth or Adelaide?
Things like crime rates, access to higher education, access to health care, child poverty rates, etc. Portland and Seattle are likely 2 of the better US cities to live in, but US cities will all fall down in a few areas where Australian, Canadian, NZ, and some European cities fare much better.
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  #32  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2014, 4:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Australia and Canada, and Nordic Europe, do not, on average, have better food, better transportation, more religious freedom, less conformity, than other first world nations.
Countless studies suggest they do. My personal experiences would square with those findings as well.
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  #33  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2014, 4:29 AM
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Adelaide makes up, what, almost 5% of Australia's population? And is a state capital and largest city within hundreds of miles in every direction? I would expect it to punch above its weight when compared to American cities of equivalent size in terms of basically everything. Why wouldn't it?

And I just checked out it's weather - looks even better than San Diego's, if a Mediterranean climate is your thing.
     
     
  #34  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2014, 4:34 AM
isaidso isaidso is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
My point is that people generally want to live somewhere like San Diego and not Calgary or Adelaide or wherever.
People don't want to move to Calgary? I think you need to do some serious back pedaling. Calgary is one of the fastest growing metros in the western world and it's not just Canucks moving there. The Calgary CMA is growing around 3% annually.

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Last edited by isaidso; Aug 28, 2014 at 4:45 AM.
     
     
  #35  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2014, 4:47 AM
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so what exactly makes Tikrit, or Baghdad for that matter, a bad place?
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  #36  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2014, 4:50 AM
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Cities in countries like Canada, New Zealand, Australia and Scandinavia tend to do well in these kinds of surveys because they usually have the essentials of liveability right. Strong public healthcare, quality/equitable public education, stability and peace, low crime rates, strong civil liberties, high quality infrastructure, good environment (Canadian weather knocks us down a notch), strong economies, plentiful job opportunities, and so forth. While not necessarily the most exciting cities on the planet, they offer a tremendous quality of life.
     
     
  #37  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2014, 4:58 AM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
The fact that the developed nations of Europe, North America, and Australia have a high quality of life than impoverished, often war-torn countries in Africa and the Middle East is racist?

Besides, what the hell is a "white city"? Just about all of the cities at the top of the list are quite multicultural (probably having something to do with the fact that these are desirable places to live). Stop inserting American racial politics where they don't belong.






So edgy!
I agree, the reaction is quite hilarious.

Both Vancouver and Toronto are majority foreign born / not white I believe (or at least very close to 50%).

Unless Asian (Chinese, Japanese, and Korean) counts as "whiteness." Which via racial politics that might very well be... I have heard some black people / groups here in Japan complain about the "pale skin toned" people's oppression of the darker skinned toned. (yes thats right, some have lumped in Japanese and White people together here, because the simple white narrative does not work quite as well in Asia, need to make some minor amendments, hehe).

I believe the Australian cities shown also have massive Asian populations.

Again, it is the classic American racial political spectrum trying to spread their view of the world onto other countries.
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  #38  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2014, 5:04 AM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Funny how these lists place Vancouver always near the top but in Canadian surveys it always places at the bottom. That's because the Canadian surveys include this little thing called "cost of living" and there is no city in the country within a country mile of Vancouver when it comes to it's extreme cost of living coupled with low wages.

Vancouver has a lot going for it but according to the Canadian surveys your quality of life and standard of living will plunge if you moved to Vancouver.
Classic ssiguy response, was waiting for that, and always, complete bs.

The quality of life in Vancouver is amazing.

Yes, it is expensive (especially for owning a home) but renting is actually not that bad.

The high cost of living rarely got in the way of my fantastic time living in Vancouver, and I have a feeling many living there would agree. Again, it is still growing fast, so there must be something attracting people there...

And recently there has been major economic growth as well.

Sydney I believe is also an expensive city to live on the international scale, as is Toronto, but all of their pros far outweigh that con, same with Vancouver.

Can we put a little warning label on ssiguys posts in the future, something like *this post will contain complete bizarre bias hate towards Vancouver and or Toronto depending on his mood*
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  #39  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2014, 5:44 AM
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Originally Posted by ukw View Post
Going by your criteria, the average person has way more fun and pleasure in an Australian or Northern-European city (yes, even Helsinki) than they do in the average American city, where there is nothing to do, life is strictly regulated by a litany of laws regarding activities such as drinking or entertainment, and there is generally less real-life freedom (although possibly more political freedom). Worse food, no public transportation, a surprising persistence of religious laws, an unpleasant conformity with a lack of true culture, boredom, all conspire to make American cities much worse in comparison to the ones in .AU or Europe.

Good jobs are available aplenty in Germany:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/05/bu...of-europe.html
You sound so ignorant it's sad. This is coming from someone with both an EU and US passport. You don't seem to have traveled much around America, and your sweeping generalizations don't help your case.
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  #40  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2014, 5:49 AM
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The idea that any American city should rank amongst the world's most liveable cities is laughable. But I guess instead of using a formula with objective, quantifiable metrics, they should just base the results on what Crawford thinks are the "most boring" and "least boring" cities. There are factors that are common to all American cities like the continued lack of true Universal Health Care that negatively affects them, no matter how "exciting" Crawford thinks they are.
     
     
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