Should southern ontario be regarded as Canada's south?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by chevvac

Up here, we refer to everything south of 60 as 'down South'. Also in the Yukon we have the slang: 'the Outside'. Leaving the territory is known as going Outside. Also someone not from the Yukon is from Outside. 'Down South' is also often used as a pejorative, like: "great another idea from Down South". Don't get me wrong most Northerners are incredibly friendly, just proud of where they are from and suspicious of top-down solutions from Southern Canada.

Wouldn't those be "bottom-up" solutions?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by someone123

For example a large number of gay relationships are open. It is to the point where in a lot of places gay guys will think you are weird if you and your partner are monogamous.

Tell me about it. My fiancee and I are strictly monogamous and other gay men don't seem to get it. We actually avoid gay-themed events for the most part because of the all the times people harass us for a threesome and don't believe us when we say we're not interested.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by someone123

Most of the time now it's apps like Grindr (which is mostly hookups), Scruff (more mixed, including people looking for actual dates or friends), etc. These work in the smallest of towns. If you're in a remote area you will struggle to meet people but a medium-sized city in a populated area isn't like that.

I think the point about travelling around in smaller places is pretty important too. Here in Vancouver a lot of people who live downtown in small apartments and have no car don't even go to Burnaby. They effectively live in an area with about 500,000 people in it, and they tend to spend more on housing and consequently don't have as much disposable income. And like I've said before the people living out in Brampton aren't going to Church Street every night to party. Even for gay people, the ones living downtown are a minority. If you are a trust fund baby or a character from Wolf of Wall Street maybe these issues don't all apply to you but I would guess that relatively few SSPers fall into that category.

I agree on this. Even in tiny Kingston where there is no official gay bar anywhere in the city (though a lot of the clubs do have gay nights), back when I was on the market I had no difficulty finding plenty of "dates" (mostly hookups, but you know ) and I'm not exactly a looker. Grindr was key.

[ssiguy]

More gays are just detaching from the entire scene. You can tell that by the collapse of the number of gay bars. I'm gay and haven't been to a gay pride parade since the early 90s and have no desire. I find it tacky and has turned into a nothing more than a freak show and a business advertising event.

The reality is that most gay people really no longer give a shit about the standard LGBTQRSTUVWXYZ {please let me know if I've missed anyone} community. It's similar to how the professional feminists try to talk like they speak for all women and the same goes for the hard core gay establishment. They talk up a storm and bitch continually to reassure the government their services are still needed so that their federal funding will be approved to keep them employed but everyone else has moved on.

[1overcosc]

^ Which is arguably the greatest evidence that the gay rights movement has succeeded.. it's now essentially disbanding itself (at least in Canada) because it's achieved its goals of normalization and equality.

[ssiguy]

Now, if only we could ditch this insulting, derogatory, and divisive word "Queer" which some nobodies in the 90s dreamed up. Much of the word Queer or LGBTQRSTUVWXYZ has been replaced with "sexual minorities".

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Now, if only we could ditch this insulting, derogatory, and divisive word "Queer" which some nobodies in the 90s dreamed up. Much of the word Queer or LGBTQRSTUVWXYZ has been replaced with "sexual minorities".

The "Q" in LGBTQ is for "Questioning" not Queer. Queer was used in the 80s during the AIDS crisis by people doing good work and forcing LGBT issues. It was very political and somewhat punk. Queer was basically the slur used by the generation previous to X thus the desire to own it. I really don't know anyone outside of the super militant or political who uses it anymore (its usage feels academic now).

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

More gays are just detaching from the entire scene. You can tell that by the collapse of the number of gay bars. I'm gay and haven't been to a gay pride parade since the early 90s and have no desire. I find it tacky and has turned into a nothing more than a freak show and a business advertising event.

The reality is that most gay people really no longer give a shit about the standard LGBTQRSTUVWXYZ {please let me know if I've missed anyone} community. It's similar to how the professional feminists try to talk like they speak for all women and the same goes for the hard core gay establishment. They talk up a storm and bitch continually to reassure the government their services are still needed so that their federal funding will be approved to keep them employed but everyone else has moved on.

Sounds about right.

There seems to be a very blatant disconnect.

I'm autistic and I pretty much can say as a fact a significant portion of the people I meet that have anything to do with LGBT are misfits trying to cling to a cause.


It's such an odd contradiction to me. When I try to get involved in the autism community(aspergers) related stuff I always meet a disproportionate number of gay people.

It's odd because while virtually every straight male I am friends with quickly identifies with how so many of their social problems come from being on the spectrum, I've noticed the gay/bi guys treat the social implication of being autistic as being such a minor thing, and over contribute so much to being gay.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Stryker

...
It's odd because while virtually every straight male I am friends with quickly identifies with how so many of their social problems come from being on the spectrum, I've noticed the gay/bi guys treat the social implication of being autistic as being such a minor thing, and over contribute so much to being gay.

No, that's because none of the straight guy's social problems come from being straight. You can figure out the rest logically.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

All of the major Canadian cities in the top 9 with the possible exception of Quebec City have a decent amount of diversity within them, to the point where people from any of them (unless they are hyper-sensitive) won't be blown away or made uncomfortable by the diversity of Toronto.

My kids live in Gatineau. Close to half their friends are of immigrant origins from around the world. When they go to Toronto they don't think: "OMG it's so diverse with people from all over the world!"

They see that in the classroom right next to them every single day.

From the perspective of a visible minority, I have to say that the difference between Toronto / Vancouver and the other major cities in Canada is pretty stark. Montreal, Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa and Winnipeg are reasonably diverse, but the critical mass is often lacking. Quebec City is of course homogeneous.

I've lived (and currently live) in many places in the US even here there are only a handful of cities with the kind of diversity that Toronto and Vancouver exhibit. It's not just about having a few here and there, but the critical mass to really have these cultures flourish.

Having grown up in Toronto where almost all of my friends were the first generation to be born in Canada in their family or came to Canada at an early age, it's a major culture shock going to other cities where (i) the number of similarly situated people are few and (ii) those who are first generation / came at an early age are extremely assimilated, to the point where there is absolutely no remnant of their ancestral culture (think coconuts, bananas, etc), because they never had anyone outside of the home to share that culture with.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

That's not really what I meant. This isn't about the mostly English-speaking, mostly Canada-born, mostly white, mostly straight, &c. chunk of the population. It's not about their feelings, prejudices, levels of tolerance or respect for diversity. This is about the people who don't fall into that group, the communities they build and the (urban) spaces they occupy.

I couldn't agree more. For a white Canadian, it doesn't really make a difference if their metropolitan area has 33/100 visible minorities or 55/100 visible minorities.

But for members of these communities, it makes a very significant difference. Especially because the visible minorities are not a monolith. For there to be meaningful and vibrant diversity, there needs to be critical mass. Otherwise you just get very superficial diversity and these minority kids and adults experience challenges in a situation without a critical mass of similarly situated peope.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Architype

No, that's because none of the straight guy's social problems come from being straight. You can figure out the rest logically.

Yeah I'm sure

These are all people where being gay is not a big deal and god forbid an advantage.

And yet they still create the woe in me narrative.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

From the perspective of a visible minority, I have to say that the difference between Toronto / Vancouver and the other major cities in Canada is pretty stark. Montreal, Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa and Winnipeg are reasonably diverse, but the critical mass is often lacking. Quebec City is of course homogeneous.

I've lived (and currently live) in many places in the US even here there are only a handful of cities with the kind of diversity that Toronto and Vancouver exhibit. It's not just about having a few here and there, but the critical mass to really have these cultures flourish.

Having grown up in Toronto where almost all of my friends were the first generation to be born in Canada in their family or came to Canada at an early age, it's a major culture shock going to other cities where (i) the number of similarly situated people are few and (ii) those who are first generation / came at an early age are extremely assimilated, to the point where there is absolutely no remnant of their ancestral culture (think coconuts, bananas, etc), because they never had anyone outside of the home to share that culture with.

I have no trouble believing this is true for some people, but not all minorities care about or even want to be in a place where they can live to some degree amongst people of the same origin as them. A significant number don't care, and there are even some who want get away from their original culture.

For those who do care, there are also smaller cities in Canada that offer arguably better immigrant community life to certain groups than the bigger cities do. Think of Lebanese in Ottawa-Gatineau or Philippinos in Winnipeg.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

I couldn't agree more. For a white Canadian, it doesn't really make a difference if their metropolitan area has 33/100 visible minorities or 55/100 visible minorities.

But for members of these communities, it makes a very significant difference. Especially because the visible minorities are not a monolith. For there to be meaningful and vibrant diversity, there needs to be critical mass. Otherwise you just get very superficial diversity and these minority kids and adults experience challenges in a situation without a critical mass of similarly situated peope.

It depends on what we are talking about. Is there really more of an advantage to being a Latin American or Jamaican kid in Toronto just because the city has huge East Asian and South Asian origin populations?

[lio45]

Yeah, I'd say the ideal place for them to be if their priority is the perennity of "ancestral culture" is actually the homeland, not a foreign country like Canada.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It depends on what we are talking about. Is there really more of an advantage to being a Latin American or Jamaican kid in Toronto just because the city has huge East Asian and South Asian origin populations?

Its funny because in my experience I see alot of people who just want away from their "culture". Its often a trap as much as it's liberation.

Anyway I'm tired of this topic. Minorities(myself included) use the same individualist nonsense to explain why living a smaller city is so awful and it's a load of crap. Sure you can find more of your own kind, but you have to because everyone is so much more inclined to ignore you altogether.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Yeah, I'd say the ideal place for them to be if their priority is the perennity of "ancestral culture" is actually the homeland, not a foreign country like Canada.

The retention of a decent level of cultural specificity by immigrant groups tends to be (in all but the most exceptional cases) ephemeral as well.

Although I suppose for some people who are in the first generation(s) and who are looking for this to feel comfortable, even if it's temporary and lasts only for their lifetime, that's all that counts.

I doubt very many people have come to Canada to build a New India, a New Pakistan or a New China here.

[mistercorporate]

Saffronleaf wasn't arguing that it was better to have mucho-diversity. He was simply stating that the level of diversity in Canada once you leave Toronto or Vancouver, falls off a cliff (which is readily apparent regardless of the level of integration of those observed). This is a statement I'm inclined to agree with, given the jaws-to-the-floor reaction of non Toronto/Vancouverites to the differences here, in particular I'm speaking of the typical visitors from places like Ottawa, Kitchener, Oshawa, Calgary, upstate New York, California, etc. Perhaps it's the variety that contributes to this perception as well, in most other North American cities you see the bulk of the population made up of at most 3 different ethnic groups. Outside of NYC and Toronto you simply don't see this kind of overwhelming kaleidoscope in NA and within Canada, Vancouver also comes pretty close though not with as much variety.

I love the diversity here, but sometimes even I need to take a break and a change of scenery. Having grown up in relatively lily-white places like London, Toronto seems like a whole other level of diversity, hence my frequent sojourns in Central Ontario are quite welcome.

To say that someone from Ottawa wouldn't be blown away by the difference in diversity with Toronto is rather bizzare. Perhaps Gatineau is a singular bastion of ultra-ethnic neighbourhoods we absolutely aren't hearing about! Or perhaps it's the consistent noise emanating from an individual who obsessively likes to make hundreds of posts contradicting any of Toronto's defining characteristics (made by others) in multiple forums throughout the internet

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Saffronleaf wasn't arguing that it was better to have mucho-diversity. He was simply stating that the level of diversity in Canada once you leave Toronto or Vancouver, falls off a cliff (which is readily apparent regardless of the level of integration of those observed). This is a statement I'm inclined to agree with, given the jaws-to-the-floor reaction of non Toronto/Vancouverites to the differences here, in particular I'm speaking of the typical visitors from places like Ottawa, Kitchener, Oshawa, Calgary, upstate New York, California, etc. Perhaps it's the variety that contributes to this perception as well, in most other North American cities you see the bulk of the population made up of at most 3 different ethnic groups. Outside of NYC and Toronto you simply don't see this kind of overwhelming kaleidoscope in NA and within Canada, Vancouver also comes pretty close though not with as much variety.

I love the diversity here, but sometimes even I need to take a break and a change of scenery. Having grown up in relatively lily-white places like London, Toronto seems like a whole other level of diversity, hence my frequent sojourns in Central Ontario are quite welcome.

To say that someone from Ottawa wouldn't be blown away by the difference in diversity with Toronto is rather bizzare. Perhaps Gatineau is a singular bastion of ultra-ethnic neighbourhoods we absolutely aren't hearing about! Or perhaps it's the consistent noise emanating from an individual who obsessively likes to make hundreds of posts contradicting any of Toronto's defining characteristics (made by others) in multiple forums throughout the internet

SSP Canada Films Presents

MISTERCORPORATE PART XXV

This time, it's personal.

[ssiguy]

I have said this several times over the years and I still think it's true........multiculturalism is strictly a big city Canada experience that half of Canadians do not relate to. For nearly all urban/rural areas in the country under 200,000k, ethnically speaking, they are little changed from the 1950s and there is no reason why {or it even should} change for decades to come.