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  #21  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 8:30 PM
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Originally Posted by CherryCreek View Post
True, though Canadian metros tend to outperform even thriving US metros in measures such as wealth-disparity, crime (particularly gun violence), healthcare and medical outcomes, and poop/needles on sidewalks (much less of it).

I'm sure Houston is 'performing' much better than Montreal but much of Houston looks like a bombed out mess and I would bet the farm the quality of life for the average person in MTL is probably better than here in Houston. We have obscene wealth here and then we have abject poverty with chickens in the roads. Plus they have those fantastic bagels in Montreal
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  #22  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 8:48 PM
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I'm sure Houston is 'performing' much better than Montreal but much of Houston looks like a bombed out mess and I would bet the farm the quality of life for the average person in MTL is probably better than here in Houston. We have obscene wealth here and then we have abject poverty with chickens in the roads. Plus they have those fantastic bagels in Montreal
I haven't been there in a while and when I was there did not explore the nether regions very extensively. But Houston is a new-ish city with lots of wealth. Surely it can't be that bad?
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  #23  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 8:51 PM
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Montréal has a lower GDP than Boston or Philadelphia but our population growth is a lot higher than these 2 cities combined. +176k since 2016-2017, July 1st.

Quebec added 100k people last year alone.
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  #24  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 9:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I haven't been there in a while and when I was there did not explore the nether regions very extensively. But Houston is a new-ish city with lots of wealth. Surely it can't be that bad?
It's a massive city (geographically) and it does have a lot of wealth, extravagant wealth but there are huge swathes of the region that are extremely poor despite the relative newness of it. I haven't' been to Montreal in a while either and that was in and out to watch the Rangers get their asses handed to them by the Habs but didn't notice the level of blight like I do here and most American cities.
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  #25  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 9:20 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
It's a massive city (geographically) and it does have a lot of wealth, extravagant wealth but there are huge swathes of the region that are extremely poor despite the relative newness of it. I haven't' been to Montreal in a while either and that was in and out to watch the Rangers get their asses handed to them by the Habs but didn't notice the level of blight like I do here and most American cities.
That’s a general difference between the US and Canada since inequality is much lower. The US has larger showings of poverty and extravagant wealth, Canada is sort of “meh” all the way across (generally speaking).
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  #26  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 9:28 PM
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One thing that's a striking contrast to the US is that in Canada, all of the cities (above a certain size, like the ones making the list) aren't declining in population.

In the US, inter-city mobility means some lose, some gain. But in Canada, it's like all the cities are gaining.

I wonder why that is? It can't only be international migration (which indeed props up the growth of bigger cities) because even small cities that are not known for being super major international/interprovincial migrant destinations aren't dropping (they are all keeping steady and growing, even if slowly).

There's no equivalent of something like a city of a million (or even half million or quarter million) or more bleeding population and another city elsewhere in the same or different part of the country picking up or gaining that loss, the way the Rust Belt loses to the Sunbelt.

What's up -- just that Canada doesn't really get the dynamic city-to-city movement that the US gets (or all the growth is small town to big city?).
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  #27  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 9:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
One thing that's a striking contrast to the US is that in Canada, all of the cities (above a certain size, like the ones making the list) aren't declining in population.

In the US, inter-city mobility means some lose, some gain. But in Canada, it's like all the cities are gaining.

I wonder why that is? It can't only be international migration (which indeed props up the growth of bigger cities) because even small cities that are not known for being super major international/interprovincial migrant destinations aren't dropping (they are all keeping steady and growing, even if slowly).

There's no equivalent of something like a city of a million (or even half million or quarter million) or more bleeding population and another city elsewhere in the same or different part of the country picking up or gaining that loss, the way the Rust Belt loses to the Sunbelt.

What's up -- just that Canada doesn't really get the dynamic city-to-city movement that the US gets (or all the growth is small town to big city?).
Do you mean city or regional population? It isn't exactly common for major U.S. metros to lose population, either. But declining inner cities usually get all of the media attention.
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  #28  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 9:41 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Do you mean city or regional population? It isn't exactly common for major U.S. metros to lose population, either. But declining inner cities usually get all of the media attention.
Actually I think that raises a good point. Canadian cities had a tendency to amalgamate (merge) cities with their suburbs during some phases of growth (e.g. Toronto pre-1998 was much smaller until it merged with former suburbs) which might mask the decline of some cities that do lose population in one part but gain in another (not Toronto in particular now, although it too had population drops due to suburbanization in the latter part of the 20th century, but the effect may still apply elsewhere in contemporary times).

I wonder if the difference would be smaller if this was considered (imagine if Chicago or Detroit offset their decline by annexing/amalgamating suburbs, not that politically that would be feasible!).
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  #29  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 9:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
One thing that's a striking contrast to the US is that in Canada, all of the cities (above a certain size, like the ones making the list) aren't declining in population.

In the US, inter-city mobility means some lose, some gain. But in Canada, it's like all the cities are gaining.

I wonder why that is? It can't only be international migration (which indeed props up the growth of bigger cities) because even small cities that are not known for being super major international/interprovincial migrant destinations aren't dropping (they are all keeping steady and growing, even if slowly).

There's no equivalent of something like a city of a million (or even half million or quarter million) or more bleeding population and another city elsewhere in the same or different part of the country picking up or gaining that loss, the way the Rust Belt loses to the Sunbelt.

What's up -- just that Canada doesn't really get the dynamic city-to-city movement that the US gets (or all the growth is small town to big city?).
Fewer optoins, perhaps. The US has four times the number of cities with populations over 500k than Canada--that's a lot of economic clusters vying for people and jobs.
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  #30  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 9:47 PM
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Fewer optoins, perhaps. The US has four times the number of cities with populations over 500k than Canada--that's a lot of economic clusters vying for people and jobs.
True, but I still don't know how come the 100-200k and 300k cities can maintain their pace (more than their stateside counterparts) and even grow rather than bleed people to the bigger clusters.

If Canada had fewer options, perhaps you'd find the 500k+ and the 1 million cities+ do well, but the under 500k's drop. But the >500k's are still okay.
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  #31  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 9:52 PM
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Or maybe, Canada's population is just more clustered, so that even the cities of a few hundred thousands are close enough to the bigger cities that people can commute to them or be linked to them more easily within the metro area, without having to lose population to them by people moving away?
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  #32  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 9:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
One thing that's a striking contrast to the US is that in Canada, all of the cities (above a certain size, like the ones making the list) aren't declining in population.
Our cold winters

On a serious note, and what others have alluded to, I think a big part of it is because of few Urban choices..Aside from Ontario, there aren't more then 2 choices at most for people to migrate to if they want to stay in province and live in an Urban area..There's also no Sunbelt to lure people away. Most of the cities listed, are the ones people from rural areas migrate to in order to live in "the" city. In some cases even the 200 k cities are the regional hub that draw people in from their respective area i.e Greater Sudbury.My take anyways...If Canada had a population of 150 million, odds are, because we would have a lot more cities, we would witness some that are declining or have gone through a decline. Ditto if Canada was a much older country..Just by chance/statistics.

Last edited by Razor; Feb 13, 2020 at 10:04 PM.
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  #33  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
Actually I think that raises a good point. Canadian cities had a tendency to amalgamate (merge) cities with their suburbs during some phases of growth (e.g. Toronto pre-1998 was much smaller until it merged with former suburbs) which might mask the decline of some cities that do lose population in one part but gain in another (not Toronto in particular now, although it too had population drops due to suburbanization in the latter part of the 20th century, but the effect may still apply elsewhere in contemporary times).

I wonder if the difference would be smaller if this was considered (imagine if Chicago or Detroit offset their decline by annexing/amalgamating suburbs, not that politically that would be feasible!).
I can speak pretty authoritatively of Detroit, but it absolutely would not have deteriorated as badly as it did if the city government had more control over regional land use policies. I suspect that other places in the Midwest would be similar.
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  #34  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 10:12 PM
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I can speak pretty authoritatively of Detroit, but it absolutely would not have deteriorated as badly as it did if the city government had more control over regional land use policies. I suspect that other places in the Midwest would be similar.
Agreed, but that isn't the main difference between Canadian/U.S. cities. A deamalgamated Toronto probably wouldn't be less healthy city and region, and I'm not sure if an amalgamated Detroit would be in much better shape than today, especially if said amalgamation had occurred in the late 60's through 2000 or so.

The differences are mostly nation-specific. Race, immigration, inequality, govt. intervention in housing markets, no Sunbelt, no GI Bill, etc.
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  #35  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I can speak pretty authoritatively of Detroit, but it absolutely would not have deteriorated as badly as it did if the city government had more control over regional land use policies. I suspect that other places in the Midwest would be similar.
True, Chicago metro has like 500 local government bodies with all sorts of differing priorities. One of the major victims is regional transit, which could have been a major catalyst for growth during the urban renaissance of the past 20 years.
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  #36  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 10:25 PM
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A lot less inter-provincial migration between provinces than in the US. I think the main difference is the international immigration. We only have 3 big cities, pretty much all the immigrants go in those 3 cities. If it wasn't for that international immigration, Canada would lose population over time. The intra-provincial migration is also a factor of growth for the smaller cities. The high cost of real estate is pushing people farther and farther, thus, the metropolitan area of Montréal and Quebec City are increasing in area. Regional hub cities are growing too because of that reason, they pretty much all have a positive net intra-provincial migration. A number of regional hubs have a higher growing rate than the larger cities because of that.
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  #37  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Handro View Post
True, Chicago metro has like 500 local government bodies with all sorts of differing priorities. One of the major victims is regional transit, which could have been a major catalyst for growth during the urban renaissance of the past 20 years.
forcing those 500 local government bodies into a single super-regional government would've no doubt helped with regional planning initiatives in chicagoland, and likely kept the central city healthier overall, but to crawford's point, i remain skeptical that it would have made much of a dent in the untold hundreds of thousands of chicagolanders who've fled to florida, texas, arizona, etc. over the past half-century because snow apparently causes cancer, or something.

canada doesn't have a frost belt/sun belt dichotomy like the US, and thus hasn't experienced an internal mass migration movement from north to south like the US has over the past handful of decades.
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  #38  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 10:50 PM
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MTL and Boston feel about the same, Philly feels/is a bit bigger.
the center of town maybe has a similar feel, but Boston is far more polycentric while Montreal is extremely centralized /gridded , more akin to Philadelphia.
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  #39  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 10:55 PM
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And that's true of U.S. cities vs. much of the rest of the world as well.

They're about the same size and I'm personally familiar with both, and no matter what the GDP numbers say I've never gotten the impression that Detroit was overall a richer city than Melbourne...
what would Melbourne look like without chinese real estate capital inflows though? Or if the Australians had decided to leave all that coal in the ground instead of sending it to China to be consumed in power plants?

wealth is about the purchasing power of the average citizen, not the crystallization of overseas investment in the built form of high rise condos. On this, Philadelphia and Boston and even Detroit tend to outperform (english speaking) canadian and australian cities.

Montreal actually has a very high-value economy with a lot of aviation work...it's one of the bigger centers of higher-value industrial activity in Canada AFAIK.
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  #40  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 11:01 PM
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I haven't been there in a while and when I was there did not explore the nether regions very extensively. But Houston is a new-ish city with lots of wealth. Surely it can't be that bad?
Its not. asserting that its bombed out is nonsense. that said, it's full of low-skill hispanic immigrants, who tend to have less tidy neighborhoods. also there are a lot of industrial facilities in and around the city, which tend to create blight and low property values around them.

I would also assert that lower-end Canadian immigrants tend to cluster in 1960s high rises, in the US these people live in houses. both populations may be equally poor but poor people in aging public housing high rises tend to be less visibly poor than those in rundown houses.
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