HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2020, 2:07 AM
llamaorama llamaorama is offline
Unicorn Wizard!
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,211
Areas from the "urban revival" era that didn't make it or declined?

I was just thinking, its the year 2020. 1990 was 30 years ago. In 1990, the very first modern urban revival or new urbanist developments had started in cities like Portland and Minneapolis. It was a nadir for many inner cities but the new dawn was just over the horizon.

30 years before 1990 was the year 1960. A lot of things built in 1960 were looking kind of shabby in 1990, like some of the early post war suburbs that got hit by white flight and their dead malls. Urban renewal and Le Corb style stuff came in with a bang, and was being imploded by the end of that 30 year period.

30 years before 1960, it was 1930. 1930, cities were radically different. In 1960, downtowns were crashing and burning and cities were clearning out whole areas of stuff that was alive in 1930.

So...

Is it just me or has this rapid rate of change, this churn, kind of slowed down in American cities? Yes I realize that certain things affecting our surroundings like the decline of brick and mortal retail has occured, but that has been more of a slow change.

For the most part, there are few neighborhoods in my city that were being built in 1990 that are now bad in 2020. There are basically no major buildings built in 1990 that are being torn down in 2020. All major changes since 1990 in this city seem to be on a positive trajectory, not a negative one.

Can anyone think of a modern urban district, or previously gentrified urban area, or a really significant landmark from the last 30 years which has gone in a bad direction? Have their been any new urbanist style master planned communities which are now section 8 housing?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2020, 2:33 AM
xzmattzx's Avatar
xzmattzx xzmattzx is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 6,361
The Village of Eastlake in Wilmington was touted as a development that would bring dignity and respect to residents. Grants were given out to allow people to own their first homes. Other homes were rented at below-market rates. These houses were built in the late 2000s. You can see it here, and I have some pictures of the area when the houses were first finished.

Unfortunately, it didn't help as much as people were hoping. Crime is still a big problem. Some people are not keeping up their houses. Gang activity is prevalent. So this is not seen as a big success. I remember reading an article about it a couple years ago, after wondering how things were going there.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2020, 1:41 PM
llamaorama llamaorama is offline
Unicorn Wizard!
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,211
Sounds like a housing project.

I was thinking along the lines of something that was private and supposed to be cool or the next big thing. Like malls and new suburbs from the 1960s that were dumps 30 years later.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2020, 11:20 PM
mhays mhays is offline
Never Dell
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 19,804
There are plenty of retail-oriented developments that just didn't work out, either from the start or lately as the internets have diminished retail. Think festival marketplaces and urban malls in cities like Jacksonville and San Diego.

I was already a nerd for this stuff in 1990. The biggest difference is my level of expectations. I used to expect every new building or two to have a big effect on its neighborhood...it turns out the effects are usually very incremental. The change I once expected from 500 apartments might actually take 2,000.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2020, 12:00 AM
craigs's Avatar
craigs craigs is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,832
Yeah, urban malls. They were being built all through the 1990s, and a great many of them are dead or dying today. Brick and mortar retail is a mess.

That said, most of the housing and office projects built in US central cities, circa 1990, are probably still functioning as intended, if a bit dated looking.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2020, 10:11 PM
pdxtex's Avatar
pdxtex pdxtex is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,124
Just from browsing real estate online, I'd say some boom and bust places out west haven't faired the best. I've seen some pretty ratty 90s listings in phx, vegas and inner desert California. That being said, I'd say Vegas is about to have its Portland moment based on what's happening downtown and north of the strip.
__________________
Portland!! Where young people formerly went to retire.

Last edited by pdxtex; Feb 3, 2020 at 10:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 8:41 AM
Pedestrian's Avatar
Pedestrian Pedestrian is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 24,177
If by "areas", you count neighborhoods, I'd call attention to San Francisco's Fillmore District.

In the post-war era, the city designated the Fillmore, which some had previously called "the Harlem of the West" as a redevelopment project area:



Previously, the area had looked like this:


Above 2 images: https://hoodline.com/2016/01/how-urb...der-to-save-it

So the bulldozers went to work:


https://hoodline.com/2016/01/how-urb...d-the-fillmore

And physically, the neighborhood was largely rebuilt:


https://www.google.com/search?rls=en...fsf3Ym93x69hM:

But many of the newly built storefronts have had repeated business failures. Eventually, in the 1990s, the city designated the area a "jazz preservation district" in order to try to restore some of the pre-"redevelopment" jazz clubs and nightlife. That too has been pretty much a failure. Upon closing his club, one business owner wrote the Mayor:

Quote:
In the early 1990’s, Mayor Frank Jordan, responding to a groundswell of discontent from the African American business community that the Western Addition A-2 Redevelopment Project (“A-2”) had decimated the few African American businesses along Fillmore Street, established the Fillmore /Western Addition Economic Development Task Force ( “Task Force”) to work collaboratively with the San Francisco Redevelopment Agency to devise a program to salvage some semblance of a commercial life for African American businesses in the Fillmore corridor (Fillmore from Geary Boulevard to Turk Street). The Task Force—a genuinely dedicated, intelligent, and energetic group—labored tirelessly with the Redevelopment Agency staff and Commission to formulate a plan and program to create a framework for African American entrepreneurship on Fillmore Street. From this collaborative effort, the Old Fillmore Jazz Preservation District (“Jazz Preservation District”) was created; it was proclaimed with much fanfare as an official policy program of the City and County of San Francisco.

Having successfully owned and operated a business/entertainment enterprise on the corner of California and Divisadero Street for several years that corresponded to the theme of the proposed Jazz Preservation District, I was approached by the Redevelopment Agency to participate in the revitalization effort on Fillmore Street. In October 1999, I opened Rasselas at 1534 Fillmore Street. For several years mine was the lone commercial establishment in the Jazz Preservation District. From the outset, the enthusiasm, support and encouragement from the Task Force was not matched by some key Redevelopment Agency staff.

Many times, I felt as if certain Agency staff wanted me to fail. Once I opened Rasselas there was, in my opinion, a demonstrable lack of energy and interest by the Agency staff to follow through on important policies and programs that were essential for the success of the Jazz Preservation District as well as my own business. In a report to the Agency Commission in 1995 then Executive Director Clifford Graves, stated that the success and sustainability of the Jazz Preservation District required, among other things, that recruitment of theme and supporting tenants is essential and that “financing sources” and “financing methods” associated with the unique environment of lower Fillmore Street must be devised; this call to pro-active and creative support from the City and County of San Francisco was never materialized in my opinion. To this day, I never felt a shared sense of interest with the Agency staff. Further, in my view, the Successor Agency staff has done little to promote and advance the ambitious goals of the Jazz Preservation District concept.
https://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blo...strict-vision/

But to this day, the area's businesses seem tenuous and the area is something of a backwater rather than a center of vibrant African-American life. Overall, San Francisco itself has been so successful and housing in such short supply that the residential buildings in this neighborhood are filled just as buildings all over the city are. But the main shopping street still has a slightly seedy feel and not much to attract anyone from outside the neighborhood (which distinguishes it from most of the other neighborhood "high streets" in town or even the same street farther to the north outside the area that was "redeveloped") except one of the few buildings NOT bulldozed, the Fillmore Auditorium which still host popular music events.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 2:35 PM
Centropolis's Avatar
Centropolis Centropolis is offline
disneypilled verhoevenist
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: saint louis
Posts: 11,866
st. louis has seemingly infinite examples of areas that had momentum and then slowed, stalled or backslid.

like 15 years ago while in college i almost bought a house here in the oldest corner of north st. louis for 15k or something. there was a flurry of activity, and while the neighborhood is stable didn't see the kind of breakneck appreciation i was expecting as there are so many different areas of st. louis that are in that early revitalization mode and there are only so many people investing. the attention sort of wanders around and leaves some places behind.

these parts of north st. louis always felt like the one of the best remnants of st. louis' mid-atlantic je ne sais quoi.

however, with a 2 billion dollar DOD project on its doorstep it is likely to see another wave of attention.


https://live.staticflickr.com/8050/8...00e31bbe_b.jpg


stltoday.com


wikipedia.com

wikipedia.com


https://live.staticflickr.com/3630/4...bd2ac2d6_z.jpg


https://www.urbanohio.com


builtstlouis.com


fineartamerica.com
__________________
You may Think you are vaccinated but are you Maxx-Vaxxed ™!? Find out how you can “Maxx” your Covid-36 Vaxxination today!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 2:43 PM
eschaton eschaton is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,208
There are tons of examples of commercial developments meant to revive cities from the 1990s which failed. A lot of cities were still stuck in the mindset that they needed to build amenities to attract suburbanites to dine and shop, rather than rebuild their neighborhoods. Many of those developments languished, if not failed entirely.

However, I can't off the top of my head think of any cases of failed gentrification. Once a neighborhood begins to recover, it basically proceeds in a straight line to yuppie central.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 2:46 PM
Centropolis's Avatar
Centropolis Centropolis is offline
disneypilled verhoevenist
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: saint louis
Posts: 11,866
interestingly a native milwaukeean (?) turned st. louisan turned chicagoan (i think) turned me on to this special corner of north st. louis (pictured above) many years ago with his CLASSIC early 00s urbex site https://www.builtstlouis.net/
__________________
You may Think you are vaccinated but are you Maxx-Vaxxed ™!? Find out how you can “Maxx” your Covid-36 Vaxxination today!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 2:58 PM
IrishIllini IrishIllini is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,178
Had St. Louis held up better following the Depression it’d be one of the most beautiful cities in the country. Same goes for Cincinnati, Cleveland, Detroit, and Pittsburgh after WWII.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:02 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
However, I can't off the top of my head think of any cases of failed gentrification. Once a neighborhood begins to recover, it basically proceeds in a straight line to yuppie central.
I think this is generally true, but oversimplified. Neighborhoods backslide during economic downturns. Often gentrification is called out far too early. There are early 1970's NY Times articles on nascent gentrifers in Brownstone Brooklyn, so only about a quarter century too early, and Brooklyn hadn't even reached its nadir.

Also neighborhood desirability waxes and wanes. The far eastern UES was considered very trendy in the 60's-70's, then very stodgy in the next few decades, now popular again due to opening of Second Avenue Subway.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:12 PM
Centropolis's Avatar
Centropolis Centropolis is offline
disneypilled verhoevenist
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: saint louis
Posts: 11,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishIllini View Post
Had St. Louis held up better following the Depression it’d be one of the most beautiful cities in the country. Same goes for Cincinnati, Cleveland, Detroit, and Pittsburgh after WWII.
i'm not sure about Pittsburgh but St. Louis was one of the earliest (if not earliest, excepting Pittsburgh I imagine which is arguably not midwestern per say) midwestern cities to decline, and was doing so while Detroit was in full swing boom.
__________________
You may Think you are vaccinated but are you Maxx-Vaxxed ™!? Find out how you can “Maxx” your Covid-36 Vaxxination today!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:22 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,816
Quote:
Originally Posted by Centropolis View Post
i'm not sure about Pittsburgh but St. Louis was one of the earliest (if not earliest, excepting Pittsburgh I imagine which is arguably not midwestern per say) midwestern cities to decline, and was doing so while Detroit was in full swing boom.
both st. louis and detroit set their all-time population highs in 1950, from which point both cities started to decline precipitously.

granted, st. louis' growth was considerably more muted than detroit's white hot growth in the 1900- 1950 period, but it was still growing throughout that entire period (with a very minor -0.7% decline in the 30s because of the depression, which slow-rolled just about all large established cities in the nation).
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:24 PM
Cirrus's Avatar
Cirrus Cirrus is offline
cities|transit|croissants
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 18,384
+1 to the comment about festival marketplaces and downtown malls. I think one of the key lessons of the last 30 years is that retail is inherently fickle.

Baltimore Inner Harbor, Jacksonville Landing, Norfolk Waterside, Providence Place mall, Granville Island... none what they were circa the 1990s. Some, like Columbus City Center mall, are flat out gone.
__________________
writing | twitter | flickr | instagram | ssp photo threads
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:25 PM
eschaton eschaton is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Centropolis View Post
i'm not sure about Pittsburgh but St. Louis was one of the earliest (if not earliest, excepting Pittsburgh I imagine which is arguably not midwestern per say) midwestern cities to decline, and was doing so while Detroit was in full swing boom.
Pittsburgh is not part of the midwest. However, it's true that stagnation set in a lot earlier in Pittsburgh than elsewhere. It's the main reason why Pittsburgh didn't end up with a large black population like other rust belt metros. The period of rapid employment growth basically ended around 1920 - right when immigration restrictions kicked in - meaning we didn't need to have southern blacks and hillbillies in order to keep the mills fully staffed (local population was enough).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:35 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,894
Quote:
Originally Posted by Centropolis View Post
i'm not sure about Pittsburgh but St. Louis was one of the earliest (if not earliest, excepting Pittsburgh I imagine which is arguably not midwestern per say) midwestern cities to decline, and was doing so while Detroit was in full swing boom.
Actually, St. Louis's population trajectory looks a lot like Boston's from about 1860 until 1980. That's when the socioeconomic factors distinguishing East Coast cities from the Rust Belt really seemed to take hold.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:38 PM
Centropolis's Avatar
Centropolis Centropolis is offline
disneypilled verhoevenist
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: saint louis
Posts: 11,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
both st. louis and detroit set their all-time population highs in 1950, from which point both cities started to decline precipitously.

granted, st. louis' growth was considerably more muted than detroit's white hot growth in the 1900- 1950 period, but it was still growing throughout that entire period (with a very minor -0.7% decline in the 30s because of the depression, which slow-rolled just about all large established cities in the nation).
I recommend watching the Pruitt Igoe Myth. While its true that the population of metro st. louis continued to expand it had a much older victorian core economy than detroit that was sputtering by the early 20th century even as waves of desperate migrants moved in. (its A LOT closer to the greater delta which st. louis actually shares a state with and a massive area of rural economic ruin in the early 20th century as the ozarks were being abandoned en mass after the thin topsoil washed away. st. louis lumber companies concurrently moved in and clear cut the entire thing for pennies on the dollar. there's massive tracts of essentially abandoned land even today)


https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/1153588...00&mh=603&q=70
__________________
You may Think you are vaccinated but are you Maxx-Vaxxed ™!? Find out how you can “Maxx” your Covid-36 Vaxxination today!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 4:52 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,816
^ so you're saying that st. louis was declining while it was still growing in population?

i'm not sure i totally follow you, but whatever.

st. louis certainly grew much slower than detroit in the early 20th century, so if you're just just trying to make a relative argument, then i can certainly see that.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 5:07 PM
Centropolis's Avatar
Centropolis Centropolis is offline
disneypilled verhoevenist
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: saint louis
Posts: 11,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
^ so you're saying that st. louis was declining while it was still growing in population?

i'm not sure i totally follow you, but whatever.

st. louis certainly grew much slower than detroit in the early 20th century, so if you're just just trying to make a relative argument, then i can certainly see that.
yes, i guess its not as common in the u.s. but its entirely possible for a city to be in economic decline while also growing in population. having an *extremely* poor hinterland that was in agricultural/economic /ecological collapse like the ozarks (chicago really wasn't proximate to an agricultural collapse like this on such a scale) as well as the delta-like great migration areas of the bootheel/western arkansas being fairly close was a major population contributing factor. i would venture to guess that people who couldn't afford to go on to the great lakes often stopped at st. louis.


https://daysgoneby.me

(an attempted crop of corn outside of st. louis on a rock strewn field)
__________________
You may Think you are vaccinated but are you Maxx-Vaxxed ™!? Find out how you can “Maxx” your Covid-36 Vaxxination today!
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 1:13 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.