The Pearl River Delta Megacity

[Beedok]

Looking at google images of China I know feel any claims about Canada's Golden Horseshoe being one metro zone would have to call most of China's population as part of a single metro at those densities. That's insane.

[muppet]

Originally Posted by toxteth o'grady

The BOS-DC corridor has notable gaps in it - between Baltimore and Philadelphia, for example, so it still needs some filling in. The "Blue
Banana" has not just the North Sea but the Alps in the way.

The Alps has a curious form of urbanity that's of great interest to new geographers. Basically it's a 'web city' if you like - thin rivulets of urbanity that thread through the
valleys and interconnect every settlement. What interests geographers is how despite being urban it can also work with nature - eg multi-level settlements that use
mountainsides rather than concrete storeys, vast tunnels (many of them the largest in the world) rather than highways.





It's threaded with urban areas thoughout the valleys and hillsides. Note the areas surrounding Geneva make constant fabric/ patchwork of development all the way to Lausanne:

[SHiRO]

Also the reason why public transport works so well in the rural areas of Switzerland.

[Gantz]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

As per Shiro's data, the administrative regions within the PRD have 55 million people in 28,000 sqkm, with a built up area comparable to that of Los Angeles. Whereas the counties that comprise Bos-Wash's 52 million people encompass some 145,000 sqkm. That's about the size of Bangladesh - which has 156 million people. If it were a country, it would be the 36th most densely populated.

I am assuming you are using county boundaries here to calculate Bos-wash. A lot of that geographic area can be taken away without effecting population numbers. The touted gaps between Baltimore and Philly for example are smaller than the Channel, and at least it is land that can and is being developed on. And some people saying Blue Banana is more interconnected... is that a joke?? You can actually travel using only local public transit from one end of Bos-Wash to the other... you sure as hell can't do that in Blue Banana. I challenge a person to take the London tube to Milan... LMAO. But of course, internet warriors from Europe transfer from Woolwich Arsenal right into Paris metro.

Just to show how connected Bos-Wash really is, here is a map of local commuter rail/subway maps from the cities overlayed geographically:

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Gantz

I am assuming you are using county boundaries here to calculate Bos-wash. A lot of that geographic area can be taken away without effecting population numbers. The touted gaps between Baltimore and Philly for example are smaller than the Channel, and at least it is land that can and is being developed on. And some people saying Blue Banana is more interconnected... is that a joke?? You can actually travel using only local public transit from one end of Bos-Wash to the other... you sure as hell can't do that in Blue Banana. I challenge a person to take the London tube to Milan... LMAO. But of course, internet warriors from Europe transfer from Woolwich Arsenal right into Paris metro.

That's not actually true (only New York & Philadelphia's commuter train systems link up), but even if it were - why on earth would you even take local public transit from one end to the other? That's what inter-city transit is for (which exists in both corridors, but to a greater degree in Europe). There's also the issue of settlement patterns - and Bos-Wash's linear development prevents any sort of significant connectivity from happening between more than 2 cities. Also, even if you removed everything north of the Chanel and south of the Alps, the remaining cities of the Blue Banana would still form a denser and more populated region.

But regardless, the point was that these are larger, less connected (and in the case of Bos-Wash, less populated) groupings of cities than the Chinese megalopolises (which, IMO, are the only "true" megalopolises in the world). I'm not sure why your pride seems so hurt that there isn't endless sprawl between Boston and Washington or that people would endure commutes from one end to the other. A megalopolis is really not a desirable thing unless you have some weird Coruscant-esque fixation.

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by giallo

Not sure about Bos-Was, but you can get to HK from GZ (both at either-end of the delta) in about 2 hours by train.

And that'll be cut down significantly when the truly high speed link opens at some point in the next year or two. I can't wait to be able to take the HSR to HK in only 7.5-8 hours from Shanghai.

[Beedok]

These giant megalopolises really bring home how empty Canada is.

[alex1]

Originally Posted by toxteth o'grady

The BOS-DC corridor has notable gaps in it - between Baltimore and Philadelphia, for example...

Not quite. There's a gap, but it's more or less between Wilmington's western edge (around Newark, DE) and Baltimore's northeast suburbs (Aberdeen). I'm guessing that's about 30 miles. The more noticeable gaps in development, IMO, are between Hartford and Providence.

[Gantz]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

That's not actually true (only New York & Philadelphia's commuter train systems link up), but even if it were - why on earth would you even take local public transit from one end to the other? That's what inter-city transit is for (which exists in both corridors, but to a greater degree in Europe). There's also the issue of settlement patterns - and Bos-Wash's linear development prevents any sort of significant connectivity from happening between more than 2 cities.

It was just to illustrate the point that Boswash is much more inter-connected. In some parts you can literally walk from one MSA to the other, while being in the same city (e.g. Trenton). In addition, cities in Boswash are actually in the same country and they don't have significant cultural and language barriers among other things.

Also, even if you removed everything north of the Chanel and south of the Alps, the remaining cities of the Blue Banana would still form a denser and more populated region.

Really more populated? Lets see what happens if we remove UK and Italy.
I will be generous and include all the agglomerations with their expanded boundaries and not just city agglomerations, this figure is arguably inflated, but w/e:

From North to South (population in millions)

Lille-Kortrijk-Tournai - Belgium/France - 1.8
Flemish Diamond - Belgium - 5.5
Sillon industriel - Belgium - 2.5
Randstad - Netherlands - 7.1
Brabantse Stedenrij - Netherlands - 1.7
Arnhem-Nijmegen - Netherlands - 0.8
Meuse-Rhine - BE/NL/Germany - 3.9
Euregio Enschede-Gronau - NL/Germany - 3.3
Whole Rhine-Ruhr area - Germany - 12.0
Frankfurt/Rhine-Main - Germany - 5.2
Nuremberg region - Germany - 3.4
Mannheim/Rhine-Neckar - Germany - 2.0
Saarbrücken-Forbach - Germany - 0.7
Strasbourg-Ortenau - France/Germany - 0.9
Stuttgart region - Germany - 5.3
Munich metro area - Germany - 2.6
Basel region - Swiss/FR/Ger - 0.7
Zurich metro - Switzerland - 3.8

This turns out to be roughly 170,000 km in land area with 63.2 million population (including rural population).

And the numbers people post for Boswash land area (150,000km etc) are ridiculous and include stuff like Maine or upstate New York. For example, the largest CSA by far is the NYC CSA and it is only 34,500km. The whole Delaware Valley (Philly CSA) is 13,300 km. And the whole Boswash is only comprised of 4 CSA areas from back to back with no space in between. I don't have the stats for land areas for Baltimore-DC or Boston CSA, but I know they are comparable to NYC and Philly.

[SHiRO]

Those "metro" populations make no sense at all. Not sure where you get your information but it's quite clear you have no intimate knowledge about the subject you are making claims about.

MonkeyRonin is spot on in his claims though, so I advise you to drop the issue since this thread is not a Bos-Wash vs Blue Banana thread because vs threads are banned here.

[Gantz]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

Those "metro" populations make no sense at all. Not sure where you get your information but it's quite clear you have no intimate knowledge about the subject you are making claims about.

Some of the numbers are probably outdated. They are mostly from 2000 I believe. I also believe I didn't miss any areas, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

I advise you to drop the issue since this thread is not a Bos-Wash vs Blue Banana thread because vs threads are banned here.

Point taken.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by The Chemist

And that'll be cut down significantly when the truly high speed link opens at some point in the next year or two. I can't wait to be able to take the HSR to HK in only 7.5-8 hours from Shanghai.

I had no idea they were building an even faster link. Awesome.

Going to HK in 7 1/2 hours from SH will indeed be cool. I imagine there will be some stunning scenery along the way.

It'll be interesting to see how much business the HSR to HK takes away from the airports in SH, especially given how terribly congested and poorly run PVG is. I don't think I've had a regional flight out of PVG leave within an hour of its intended time in years. One to two hour delays are the norm.

On a related note, I did the 5 hour train trip up to Beijing a couple of months ago, and it was really enjoyable.

[M II A II R II K]

How will farming be able to sustain a contiguously urban area for that many people over such a large area....

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by destroycreate

Those photos of "rural" China...holy shitballs. It really is mind-boggling to think about how populated China is.

In the West we have a very warped view of what "rural" is. We consider things not truly rural unless you can hear crickets or can see every star at night because there are so few lights. What we consider suburban would be more what many consider rural.

Look at Bangladesh...........technically only about half the population is considered to be urban but it has 160 million people crammed into a space about the size of Iowa.

Sounds cliché but we don't appreciate how good we have it.

[MolsonExport]

Love those map-photos, muppet.

[isaidso]

Does anyone have a population estimate for the Osaka-Nagoya-Hanamatsu-Tokyo corridor (including all the towns in between)? I was under the impression that it was more populated than Bos-Wash.

[Gantz]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Does anyone have a population estimate for the Osaka-Nagoya-Hanamatsu-Tokyo corridor (including all the towns in between)? I was under the impression that it was more populated than Bos-Wash.

On the ground, Nagoya and Osaka are separated and feel like it, even though they are geographically fairly close, about 150km away from eachother. There is a natural barrier there in Mt. Gozaisho and everything there is very rural, crickets, cows and all that. (you can even see it in the break of night lights from space). Kanto region by itself has 43 million, but some of it is rural. Kanto metro area is 35.6 million and I'd say its all what we would consider urban pop. Greater Tokyo definitely feels bigger than greater NYC. However, places like Utsunomiya are not included, and in my opinion they should be. For example, when you're in Tokyo, places like Utsunomiya and Mito show on the local JR map and they are not included in the 35.6 million number...Mt.Fuji also should be included, all the way to greater Nagoya (8.7 million pop.) If you take everything from Ibaraki all the way down to Nagoya there should easily be 50 million pop, and on the ground this region does feel interconnected. I'd say after the regions in China, this region is the most populous as well as the most connected. The problem is demographics. Unlike China, most of the smaller metros and suburban areas in the region are losing population, and when I was around Mito it was already noticeable there. If the current trends don't change Tokyo itself will start losing population by 2020. It would be nice if someone would compile growth rates for each megalopolis. I am pretty sure places like Pearl river delta have crazy growth rates compared to others.

[isaidso]

Thanks for the run down. I agree that places outside Japan are more interesting to track in that they're still growing. I did feel we needed to mention this megalopolis though. Discussion of the Pearl River Delta, Blue Banana, and Bos-Wash felt incomplete without mention of Japan's primary corridor.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Beedok

These giant megalopolises really bring home how empty Canada is.

Yet Canadians argue that southern Ontario is densely populated. It has decent density, but nothing more than that. To put things into perspective, England (53 million people) and southern Ontario (13 million people) are almost identical in land area.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Gantz

On the ground, Nagoya and Osaka are separated and feel like it, even though they are geographically fairly close, about 150km away from eachother. There is a natural barrier there in Mt. Gozaisho and everything there is very rural, crickets, cows and all that. (you can even see it in the break of night lights from space). Kanto region by itself has 43 million, but some of it is rural. Kanto metro area is 35.6 million and I'd say its all what we would consider urban pop. Greater Tokyo definitely feels bigger than greater NYC. However, places like Utsunomiya are not included, and in my opinion they should be. For example, when you're in Tokyo, places like Utsunomiya and Mito show on the local JR map and they are not included in the 35.6 million number...Mt.Fuji also should be included, all the way to greater Nagoya (8.7 million pop.) If you take everything from Ibaraki all the way down to Nagoya there should easily be 50 million pop, and on the ground this region does feel interconnected. I'd say after the regions in China, this region is the most populous as well as the most connected. The problem is demographics. Unlike China, most of the smaller metros and suburban areas in the region are losing population, and when I was around Mito it was already noticeable there. If the current trends don't change Tokyo itself will start losing population by 2020. It would be nice if someone would compile growth rates for each megalopolis. I am pretty sure places like Pearl river delta have crazy growth rates compared to others.

Yeah, population loss is noticeable where I live in Japan. The major urban centres are still growing (at a loss from the rural areas).

That being said China's population will also start contracting. I forget when (I want to say about 15 to 20 years from now) due to the over success of their one child policy. Also, new couples today in China, most growing up in single child families, are not too keen on having large families themselves. 1 or 2 children is common.

Nearly all of Northern / East Asia will be contracting soon enough while south Asia continues to explode uncontrollably.