Affordable cities are the new sweet spots

[Kenmore]

snow rules

[montréaliste]

Originally Posted by goat314

St. Louis does snow consistently every year and its not uncommon to for St. Louis to get slammed. Of course we don't get slammed like the Great Lakes states, but anybody from the Gulf Coast states (Florida, Louisiana, Texas, Mississippi, Alabama etc.) would think St. Louis was the arctic. I remember a couple years ago the first snow was on Thanksgiving and the last snow was on April's Fools, I wouldn't consider that mild weather at all. I'm also confused about your Southern Magnolia trees comment, evergreens are definitely common in this area of the country, but Southern Magnolias are definitely not common or native to St. Louis, that's definitely limited to the deep south. As somebody who spends a considerable amount of my time in Florida, I will also say that St. Louis is hardly a half back destination either for northern transplants. I think North Carolina, Virginia and Tennessee have that on lock.

The magnolia comments also got my ears to stick out.
I have a magnolia tree in my backyard in Montreal and there are a lot in the city although they are definitely not a common or native cultivar. I live in a neighborhood south of downtown (Little Burgundy) that is somewhat protected as it lies downhill from downtown and is at the bottom of the slope of Mount Royal, and as such benefits from microclimactic protection probably. But magnolias seem to bloom and thrive in southern Quebec anyways.

[pdxtex]

Originally Posted by MayDay

I swear some of you have never heard of this crazy concept called "travel". I'm the first to say that around February, winter weather gets old but a few vacation days in a warmer sunnier climate makes all the difference.

i got wise. i stopped visiting my parents and sneezy inlaws in ann arbor during winter and now go see them in sarasota in march. get family visit and a bit of sunshine.

[MolsonExport]

Winter's bad in most places in Canada, but it is very far from unbearable.
In any event, our cold/dark winters make us appreciate summers more. Witness Montreal in the summer months: there are few better places to be.

[mello]

Ok enough of the winter talk back to original topic. I have been talking to a friend from Nashville and he is saying its really staring to blow up quite a bit. I know it doesn't have nearly the pre war housing stock that Cincinnati or Cleveland would have but how does it compare to Atlanta and Charlotte?

Are there many different cool older neighborhoods to buy a house like the couple in the OP's article did in Cincinnati for cheap? How about Row homes? Nashville really flies under the radar on this forum and Austin/Charlotte seem to get a lot more attention. Never seen a thread of the street car nabes of Nashville hear either.

[Dr Nevergold]

Originally Posted by mello

Ok enough of the winter talk back to original topic. I have been talking to a friend from Nashville and he is saying its really staring to blow up quite a bit. I know it doesn't have nearly the pre war housing stock that Cincinnati or Cleveland would have but how does it compare to Atlanta and Charlotte?

Are there many different cool older neighborhoods to buy a house like the couple in the OP's article did in Cincinnati for cheap? How about Row homes? Nashville really flies under the radar on this forum and Austin/Charlotte seem to get a lot more attention. Never seen a thread of the street car nabes of Nashville hear either.

Nashville, for a southern city, has an older core than average for this region. It wasn't New Orleans big, but it was among the largest cities at the turn of the 1900's in the southeast and already had a well established streetcar network by the year 1900. Nashville has a number of 10-15 story steel structures with early century architecture that are absent in Charlotte. Anything in Charlotte that looks historic is usually a modern re-creation of that era's architecture.

There's few rowhomes, transit is a joke in Nashville (and recently the lack of support has scuttled the BRT system that was to begin construction soon).

Nashville's cheapness is quickly becoming a thing of the past. Most of the newer condos have bachelors or 1 bedroom units starting at $300k and it goes up from there. Most of the rowhome style homes going for sale now retail for $450-550k and up in the core. It isn't a cheap place unless you're in suburbia.

In terms of urbanity, I have never been to Austin and can't compare, but Nashville was so much significantly larger than Charlotte before WWII that its core is far more urban than anything Charlotte has to offer. The metropolitan area is slightly smaller overall, but the central core feels more city-like despite the recent addition of the light rail system over in Charlotte. Charlotte is overall a cleaner city than Nashville, Nashville has an older core and has some rougher parts of town because of it.

That's about the best summary I can provide. Nashville still has a lot of challenges. Many of the new condos that are popping up aren't connected into a cohesive neighborhood, a lot of these newer projects are isolated projects and need a lot more infill to connect them to other parts of the city. And without a serious rapid transit system, the city is going to take years to pull everything together to make it a truly urban city.

Even Memphis, despite not growing or booming as fast as Nashville or Charlotte, still feels more urban by comparison. Again, it had a larger core than Nashville or Charlotte before the WWII era and has that legacy going for it. Likewise, compared to Nashville, Memphis has an even larger stock of 1910-1930's skyscrapers that are actually quite plentiful. Then again, Memphis isn't a typical southeastern city. Unlike any of the suburban communities in Birmingham, Atlanta, Nashville, Charlotte, Raleigh, etc. the suburbs are packed more tightly together like you find in Florida or Texas or the west coast.

Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville, etc. feel more like east coast suburbia. You really can't tell much of a difference between ultra low density suburbs in Philadelphia, DC, or Atlanta and Charlotte and Nashville. They're virtually identical.

[Dr Nevergold]

Why waste words when pictures are worth a million of them.

Just use Google Earth since travel can be expensive for a weekend.

3rd Ave:
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1644...U7fzecXx5Q!2e0

European-esque Arcade with indoor/outdoor shops connecting 4th and 5th ave:
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1645...UA4GZUN_Qw!2e0

Turn of the century steel highrises:
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1653...VcJL1BcFcg!2e0

Hermitage Hotel, another turn of the century building:
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1639...xYtPQzaARg!2e0

Printer's Alley, a popular tourist site:
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1639...6u5aQGHH9w!2e0


And you can use Google Earth to explore the core more. Nashville, for a southern city, has more turn of the century buildings than average for this region. It isn't contrived, and its lucky more haven't been torn down. Urban renewal destroyed half the core and numerous buildings were lost.

However, Nashville honestly doesn't have as much character as Memphis. Cars aren't allowed in downtown Memphis on Main Street, and it has true historic elegance with its brick streets.

In and around Memphis' Main St Mall:

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1442...SgZvKhxecw!2e0

Turn of the century buildings like the Exchange Building:
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1452...Axr9T9lOQQ!2e0

Memphis has a 1/3 sized replica of the Woolworth Building in New York:
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1456...P3z18Q35Mw!2e0

Sterick Bldg was completed in the late 20's, was the tallest building in the south for almost 30 years:
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1449...0YZfsFRwfg!2e0

Sterick from across the street:
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1445...EiUOHhRJHw!2e0

Various older buildings:
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1432...3UV7ePBNSg!2e0

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1429...FA9mdA_F7g!2e0

Gayoso House:
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1416...KyKdXEYaqw!2e0

Beale St, the nightlife district, is often closed to traffic during the evenings.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1399...XDFYHS8nyg!2e0

And feel free of course to browse about Google Earth, its urban porn.

[pdxtex]

has anyone been to grand rapids lately? that would probably qualify as a sweet spot city. its seems to be silently kicking ass behind the scenes with alot of positive growth downtown, a lower than national unemployment rate and its growing beer scene. i might have to amend my statement about midwest outdoor towns. i forget its in close proximity to some pretty good mountain bike routes and its the start of the west michigan ski cooridor. id probably move there, winter and all if i made enough dough. and for the stats wonks, its csa is about 1.3 million, not bad for west side michigan.

[AviationGuy]

Originally Posted by goat314

St. Louis does snow consistently every year and its not uncommon to for St. Louis to get slammed. Of course we don't get slammed like the Great Lakes states, but anybody from the Gulf Coast states (Florida, Louisiana, Texas, Mississippi, Alabama etc.) would think St. Louis was the arctic. I remember a couple years ago the first snow was on Thanksgiving and the last snow was on April's Fools, I wouldn't consider that mild weather at all. I'm also confused about your Southern Magnolia trees comment, evergreens are definitely common in this area of the country, but Southern Magnolias are definitely not common or native to St. Louis, that's definitely limited to the deep south. As somebody who spends a considerable amount of my time in Florida, I will also say that St. Louis is hardly a half back destination either for northern transplants. I think North Carolina, Virginia and Tennessee have that on lock.

Don't forget that northwest Texas gets slammed with snow and blizzards every year. But if your comment refers to other parts of the state, then I would agree.

[AviationGuy]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

honestly, i think there can be too much sunlight, sometimes. it's not so much an issue in the winter, but there have been times that i have longed for rainy/cloudy days during a period of unrelenting heat and sunshine. i work out of doors as an environmental professional, so im in tune with the climate/weather. it's mildly embarrasing having a "racoon" pale patch across my eyes from sunglasses and overly tan caucasian skin. i don't like the humidity of the lower midwest, but i've never really complained about the amount of sunshine smack in the middle of the country. a place like dallas would be too much sunshine/heat for me, missouri is bad enough.

Dallas may not be a great example. See the following table:

http://www.currentresults.com/Weathe...ne-by-city.php

Places in the southwest (Dallas being in the southern midwest) have far greater sunshine than Dallas. The city can have long periods of overcast in the winter and spring. Other places in Texas are somewhat cloudy, like Austin and Houston (based on average number of hours of sunshine). I get frustrated with cloudiness in Austin caused by the Balcones geological uplift.

The DFW area also gets between 35 and 40 inches of precip, just a little less than St. Louis' 41 inches (these are averages). While both can have really cold weather in the winter, St. Louis is notably colder and Dallas definitely has relentless heat from mid May through September.

(Sorry about the length of my post...being an atmospheric scientist, I love to talk weather and climate).

Edit: When I wrote my post, I hadn't seen the reminder that we needed to get back to the main subject. Sorry about that.

[toddguy]

Originally Posted by montréaliste

The magnolia comments also got my ears to stick out.
I have a magnolia tree in my backyard in Montreal and there are a lot in the city although they are definitely not a common or native cultivar. I live in a neighborhood south of downtown (Little Burgundy) that is somewhat protected as it lies downhill from downtown and is at the bottom of the slope of Mount Royal, and as such benefits from microclimactic protection probably. But magnolias seem to bloom and thrive in southern Quebec anyways.

I think they are talking pretty much exclusively about evergreen Magnolia varieties. I can't imagine any cultivar of any evergreen Magnolia thriving up there. Do these magnolias keep their(thick, almost plastic-like for evergreen magnolias)leaves all year long as the evergreen magnolia does? I can imagine some cultivars of Magnolia Soulangiana possibly surviving up there(this is the saucer magnolia, deciduous and nearly always gets the huge pink blooms zapped by frost-looks like dead bats hanging all over the tree).

Back on topic-I can imagine easily living in a city like Montreal-so much history, culture, etc. etc. that bad(very cold, dark) winters could be overlooked. Few American cities with very cold winters can match it IMO. How affordable is it though?

[Blitz]

Originally Posted by steely dan

it's also important to remember that there is a GIANT variation in snowfall across the great lakes region depending on which side of a lake a given city is on. for instance, chicago is much closer in average annual snowfall to cities like cincinnati and indy, than it is to buffalo or grand rapids.

Not just snowfall but cloud cover varies hugely as well in the Great Lakes region. Chicago being west of the lake sees much more sunshine in winter than anyone east of Lake Michigan would. Detroit went 20 straight days one winter without the sun appearing in the sky. Lake effect clouds can really add to the gloominess.

[JonathanGRR]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

has anyone been to grand rapids lately? that would probably qualify as a sweet spot city. its seems to be silently kicking ass behind the scenes with alot of positive growth downtown, a lower than national unemployment rate and its growing beer scene. i might have to amend my statement about midwest outdoor towns. i forget its in close proximity to some pretty good mountain bike routes and its the start of the west michigan ski cooridor. id probably move there, winter and all if i made enough dough. and for the stats wonks, its csa is about 1.3 million, not bad for west side michigan.

Grand Rapids is, all-in-all, a great place to live right now. If you're okay with taking the bus and working your schedule around it, I would even venture to say that you could live car-free if you really wanted to; you would have to have a car do do any outdoor activities outside of the city though. Downtown is doing great, and other areas of the city are seeing new families move in: true urban areas such as Heritage Hills and Eastown and bungalows a little further out in places like Alger Heights. While my schooling and future job prospects require me to be internationally focused, I definitely wouldn't mind having a permanent 'return-to' address in GR.

[montréaliste]

Originally Posted by toddguy

I think they are talking pretty much exclusively about evergreen Magnolia varieties. I can't imagine any cultivar of any evergreen Magnolia thriving up there. Do these magnolias keep their(thick, almost plastic-like for evergreen magnolias)leaves all year long as the evergreen magnolia does? I can imagine some cultivars of Magnolia Soulangiana possibly surviving up there(this is the saucer magnolia, deciduous and nearly always gets the huge pink blooms zapped by frost-looks like dead bats hanging all over the tree).

Back on topic-I can imagine easily living in a city like Montreal-so much history, culture, etc. etc. that bad(very cold, dark) winters could be overlooked. Few American cities with very cold winters can match it IMO. How affordable is it though?

I don't know how long the leaves will stay in the magnolia tree, but so far there are a lot left in it. twenty years ago, I planted a tree at my former house that grew to an impressive size; it used to keep its leaves in the winter and shed them in mid to late spring. It is a Spanish oak or red swamp oak. A beautiful tree shaped like a fir tree oddly enough since it was almost non-deciduous...


As far as Montreal's affordability, it is fairly good if you absolve the government for high taxes. The costs added to winter are also to be considered I suppose but I think that these are offset by relatively cheap electric power which is used by 90% of the residential users here. Also, winter here is a mix of gray and bright days, not constantly overcast. The worst thing about it is the dampness and slushy dirty conditions.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Blitz

Not just snowfall but cloud cover varies hugely as well in the Great Lakes region. Chicago being west of the lake sees much more sunshine in winter than anyone east of Lake Michigan would. Detroit went 20 straight days one winter without the sun appearing in the sky. Lake effect clouds can really add to the gloominess.

in terms of percent of possible sunshine received, on an annual basis, the difference isn't that huge across the great lakes region, but when looking at the 4 winter months specifically (nov, dec, jan, feb), it does appear that places further east in the great lakes region get noticeably less sun in the winter:

city - annual % - winter %
milwaukee - 56% - 44%
chicago - 56% - 42%
detroit - 55% - 39%
duluth - 53% - 43%
rochester - 52% - 33%
cleveland - 51% - 32%
buffalo - 49% - 30%


other cities for comparison:

phoenix - 87% - 82%
atlanta - 62% - 55%
new york - 57% - 52%
seattle - 49% - 27%

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

has anyone been to grand rapids lately? that would probably qualify as a sweet spot city. its seems to be silently kicking ass behind the scenes with alot of positive growth downtown, a lower than national unemployment rate and its growing beer scene. i might have to amend my statement about midwest outdoor towns. i forget its in close proximity to some pretty good mountain bike routes and its the start of the west michigan ski cooridor. id probably move there, winter and all if i made enough dough. and for the stats wonks, its csa is about 1.3 million, not bad for west side michigan.

I don't "get" Grand Rapids. I was there for a wedding last year, and didn't quite get the hype.

Downtown is small and rather quiet, public transit is bad, even for Michigan standards (actually lower bus ridership numbers than Lansing), lots of depressed areas, metro area is very conservative, and not particularly good prewar fabric (GR was historically not very big). There seemed to be many hipsters, though. Also lots of Mexicans for the Midwest.

And winters are horrible. GR gets the lake effect snow, so has absolutely horrific snowfall compared to Detroit or Chicago.

My sense is that GR gets positive press because look at the other MI cities. It's much less depressed than Detroit, Flint and Saginaw. It's probably a tad more vibrant than Lansing. It's far less vibrant than Ann Arbor but much bigger. If you want to stay in Michigan and insist upon a city proper, GR may be the best bet. Also, West Michigan is full of religious right-wingers, so GR sucks up all the non-conservative people.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I don't "get" Grand Rapids. I was there for a wedding last year, and didn't quite get the hype.

grand rapids has hype?

austin has hype. brooklyn has hype. portland has hype.

but grand rapids? hype? really?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

grand rapids has hype?

austin has hype. brooklyn has hype. portland has hype.

but grand rapids? hype? really?

In Michigan, kind of, yeah.

Obviously not Brooklyn, Austin or Portland hype, but it has a local reputation of kind of a small hipster mecca, at least within Michigan. I never got this reputation, and it seems to be very recent (last 10 years or so).

Honestly I see nothing particularly unique or desirable about GR as opposed to other similarly sized cities in the Midwest. If I had to live in a midsized Great Lakes city, I could find better options, IMO.

[dave8721]

There was just an article the other day on the allure of Downtown Fort Lauderdale for young renters as opposed to the Downtown Miami area. The median 1-bedroom apt rate is $900 cheaper per month in the Downtown FTL area and renters in the Downtown Miami area pay a $30 PER DAY premium in rent over comparable units in the Downtown Ftl area 30 miles north. Basically the article asked at what point is the higher rent not worth it when there are cheaper urban options near by.

http://therealdeal.com/miami/blog/20...Latest+News%29

[Double L]

For many years I have always dreamed of more residential development in downtown Houston but now that it's happening it's a catch-22 because the prices are going up and now it is possible that I will never live there.