Affordable cities are the new sweet spots

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by mhays

If 20" per year sounds like the frozen Arctic from my Pacific Northwest perspective, it must sound like hell to a sunbelter.

The sunbelt isn't monolithic, though. Many areas get snow and/or ice every year.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by goat314

St. Louis does snow consistently every year and its not uncommon to for St. Louis to get slammed. Of course we don't get slammed like the Great Lakes states, but anybody from the Gulf Coast states (Florida, Louisiana, Texas, Mississippi, Alabama etc.) would think St. Louis was the arctic. I remember a couple years ago the first snow was on Thanksgiving and the last snow was on April's Fools, I wouldn't consider that mild weather at all. I'm also confused about your Southern Magnolia trees comment, evergreens are definitely common in this area of the country, but Southern Magnolias are definitely not common or native to St. Louis, that's definitely limited to the deep south. As somebody who spends a considerable amount of my time in Florida, I will also say that St. Louis is hardly a half back destination either for northern transplants. I think North Carolina, Virginia and Tennessee have that on lock.

The southern magnolia cultivar 'Bracken’s Brown Beauty' is an evergreen magnolia that produces five-inch wide, creamy white spring flowers and is can be grown in the St. Louis area. The sweet bay magnolia, with its scented white blooms, is also suited for the St. Louis climate, but often loses its leaves in the winter.
http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.o.../magnolia.aspx

they are all over st. louis city and inner county.

i merely am stating that the lower midwest does not usually have great lakes style winters. its often noticeably milder. st. louis has harsh winters and mild winters, and winters are often closer to nashville than chicago in severity with the exception of artic fronts that bring temporary great lakes type weather, which always quickly pass. the harsh winters can catch you off guard. i had two different species of bushy palms survive two winters in a row, and then were destroyed of course last year.

the st. louis climate is a midwestern version of DCs climate, but "spikier." i always notice a sharp transition zone not very far north on 55 going to chicago, south of springfield, il.

[pdxtex]

what if you just took the metros with lower GDP per capita, is there any coorelation between lower economic output and more affordable real estate? with some exceptions of course, like miami with its huge immigrant population probably skewing the numbers a bit.

[IMBY]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

....people like to argue weather isnt that important but id beg to differ. i dunno, i think its just a tougher job market all around the country.

With those spoiled by a more favorable climate, like myself, you could offer them a free house somewhere else and they still wouldn't move there! Not even if the property taxes were waived!

[Dr Nevergold]

Winter weather in and of itself doesn't bother me throughout a majority of North America. Unless we're talking about ridiculously cold like Yellowknife, NWT, most winters I rather enjoy when December and January come along, but at the end of February/March is when I'm ready for a change. I enjoy the seasonal change.

However, living in one of the most snowy cities in North America, and one of the most snowy of all in America, I learned weather - unfortunately - does play a big factor for many people. Even while living in Buffalo I heard many people whine, moan, complain and witnessed many move to the Carolinas or Florida from my office over the years I lived there.

It wasn't because Buffalo was depressing to them, they actually hate to leave family and friends, but some people just need less or no snow. I don't understand it, because the summer months in Buffalo are just so nice. So are spring and fall, there's no snow for the vast majority of the year.

But its those months between December and March that people just cannot handle and it does apparently affect many people, and without a strong enough economic engine to keep them they leave.

Obviously there's examples like Minneapolis or Boston of booming, northern cities that have a brisk winter with snow, but those cities have strong economies that attract and hold people.

Personally, if I were offered a quality job making $80k a year in Minneapolis, I'd head there tomorrow without a second thought. Weather would be the LAST thing on my mind. But then again, I'd rather enjoy the snow because it doesn't last forever, even in Minneapolis.

[Dr Nevergold]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

it's also important to remember that there is a GIANT variation in snowfall across the great lakes region depending on which side of a lake a given city is on. for instance, chicago is much closer in average annual snowfall to cities like cincinnati and indy, than it is to buffalo or grand rapids.



Average Annual Snowfall:

great lakes cities:

rochester: 99.5"
buffalo: 94.7"
montreal: 89.6"
duluth: 86.1"
grand rapids: 74.9"
cleveland 68.1"
minneapolis: 54.5" (for comparison, not great lakes)
green bay: 51.4"
toronto: 47.8"
milwaukee: 46.9"
hamilton: 46.5"
detroit: 42.5"
toledo: 37.6"
chicago: 36.3"


lower midwest cities:

columbus: 26.7"
indianpolis: 25.9"
cincinnati: 22.1"
kansas city: 18.8"
st. louis: 17.7"


northeast cities:

boston: 43.8"
pittsburgh: 41.4"
hartford: 40.5"
providence: 33.8"
new york city: 25.8"
philly: 22.4"
D.C.: 15.4"


source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

Personally, I can tell you that from my experience Buffalo's average 94" per year isn't hard to live with either. A matter of fact, when it comes to the automobile, most people still don't even buy snow tires in the area and can drive okay (I had snow tires for 3 seasons out of my 5 winters in Buffalo, didn't see the need to spend for a new set after those first set).

It also is absolutely true that Toronto doesn't even receive half the average snowfall of Buffalo. Its such a short distance, but the lakes make a dramatic difference. It wasn't uncommon in the dead cold of winter to have a snowstorm in Buffalo drop 8 or 10 or more inches, then you drive around the lake. While you enter the QEW it remains heavy around Ft Erie. But by the time you're in Hamilton there may be 3 inches on the road from a previous snowfall and nothing new has fallen... In Toronto sometimes you'd see an inch or two while Buffalo had it up to your knees in banks.

The Great Lakes has snow zones that really have their own micro-climates.

Likewise, you do get snow in southern Appalachia. Tennessee and North Carolina are the two southern states that get regular snowfall in winter in the highland areas of the Cumberland Plateau and Smokies/Blue Ridge mountain regions. Significant snow doesn't fall south of these locations. Since this region makes almost a 3rd of the entire state in Tennessee, the climate is akin to Philadelphia more than the low country of Raleigh or Jackson, MS. And you might remember the early Halloween night storm that dumped nearly 6 inches last week in Eastern TN and Western NC.

Actually, I don't even have to refer to locations as far south as Jackson MS, Memphis has a far warmer weather climate than the eastern half of the state. Snow is less common there, its far warmer on average, and the summers are hotter too. Since I've lived in Memphis and Pittsburgh and grew up in the plateau region east of Nashville, I can honestly tell you that the climate where I grew up and Pittsburgh felt more similar than Memphis and where I grew up. The small town my parents live in is about a thousand feet above Nashville, so even Nashville is warmer than most of what lies to the east (but not as warm as Memphis). Elevation makes a big difference in this region.

[IMBY]

I can do freezing temp's, below-zero windchills, and lots of snow all too easy, but it was the cloud cover that drove me out of Minnesota to the land of 300 days of guaranteed sunshine a year! And, I think the 300 days is underestimated, as even when it clouds up here, you can still look forward to a couple of sunshine those days!

I'd love to move to Pittsburgh, would put up with the snow and cold, but googling Cloudiest Cities in the Country, Pittsburgh is right up there with Seattle, in a cloudbelt area that stretches south to another city I would love to live in: Charleston, West Virginia!

[fflint]

Originally Posted by Dr Nevergold

Obviously there's examples like Minneapolis or Boston of booming, northern cities that have a brisk winter with snow, but those cities have strong economies that attract and hold people.

Boston gets a lot of snow. I have childhood memories of snowbanks that nearly reached the second floor (and I so wanted to jump out my bedroom window onto them, and then slide down to the street--which of course was a no-go). That said, Boston weather can be much more temperate than its climate may indicate--the ocean can moderate temperatures quite a bit. Minneapolis doesn't have that.

Personally, if I were offered a quality job making $80k a year in Minneapolis, I'd head there tomorrow without a second thought.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me one could live like a king in Minneapolis on that salary. I would definitely consider that kind of offer.

[Dr Nevergold]

You can certainly live like a king in urban fashion instead of a suburban home in Minneapolis on that income.

[IMBY]

Originally Posted by fflint

Boston gets a lot of snow. I have childhood memories of snowbanks that nearly reached the second floor (and I so wanted to jump out my bedroom window onto them, and then slide down to the street--which of course was a no-go). That said, Boston weather can be much more temperate than its climate may indicate--the ocean can moderate temperatures quite a bit. Minneapolis doesn't have that.


Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me one could live like a king in Minneapolis on that salary. I would definitely consider that kind of offer.

One thing "nice" about Minneapolis is the cold is a dry cold, unlike East Coast coldness, which is much more penetrating and biting! (Been to Boston in winter) I've done research on average annual wind speeds in the U.S., and I was shocked at the higher wind speeds in Boston, higher than Chicago and Minneapolis, and when you combine the damper cold in winter and the wind, hell's bells!!!! Numbered temperatures don't mean a whole lot! Highest wind speeds in the country are in Cheyenne, WY @ 13.9, but if my memory serves me right, Boston came in at 12MPH+! Lowest of any major cities: Phoenix and L.A. tied at 6.2MPH! And? With those low wind speeds, what would you expect? Smog problems!

Having lived in Minneapolis for 21 years, this city has more than its share of Fargo-minded anti-density Nimby's, which can drive you out to the suburbs for cheaper housing! $80k a year is not going to bring you even close to living in one of their inner-city Nimby-controlled lake districts in this city dubbed City of Lakes!

Also bear in mind, another feature I disliked about Minneapolis, is it's an isolated city in league with Denver. You know, at a certain point in time, boredom will set in, and where to go to get away to different environment?

6-7 hours by car to Chicago/Milwaukee, and in winter time I wouldn't risk it for you might get delayed with snow and ice! Go north to Winnipeg, 8-9 hour drive! Des Moines to the south? 5+ hours. West? Ah, Fargo and Souix Falls! Enjoy!

[Shawn]

Boston certainly has its moments when it comes to snow - but Eastern Mass has its own odd microclimate zones. Like fflint, I have lots of childhood memories of snowbanks almost reaching my Foxboro house's second floor. But I also remember many storms followed up quickly by surprisingly balmy days, resulting (in my childhood eyes) in snow melting way too quickly.

Within the 128 loop (core Boston), snow tends to be substantially lighter than in the immediate burbs within the 495 loop. If Weston, Franklin, and Foxboro see a foot of snow, Boston and Cambridge likely only get 3-5 inches. The Cape also tends to either get sleet and freezing rain when the rest of the Eastern Mass gets snow . . . or the Cape gets the brunt of a Nor'easter and sees a foot of snow when the rest of the state gets a few inches.

Boston also sees a lot of temp variations day to day throughout the snow months; it's not uncommon to have a freezing blizzard for two days followed immediately by a 50 F sunny weekend, in January or February.

Snow melts fast on the coast because of the moderating Gulf Stream. You don't get that in places like Minneapolis or Buffalo.

[pdxtex]

concerning winter, its not just the cold, its the darkness. that combination of soul sapping uggggh is too much for me. ive only lived in northern climates, but i deal with rainy, gray oregon far better then gray, dome of gloom se michigan. its january and february, man i cant handle those two months. in order for snowy winter to be tolerable, id need to be in a huge, extremely dynamic city (chicago, toronto, boston, new york) or someplace with a good winter outdoor scene. the only places like that in the midwest are traverse city, marquette and maybe madison?? denver is kind of the holy grail to me. its SUNNY most of the year. if it cant be temperate, it should at least be sunny.

[IMBY]

Being I left Minneapolis due to the cloud cover, the cheeriest winters I spent there is when there was lots and lots and lots snow, to brighten things up!

Oh, those winters where we received only little snow!

[Dr Nevergold]

I never knew Boston had such a large snowfall gradient from city to suburbs.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by Dr Nevergold

I never knew Boston had such a large snowfall gradient from city to suburbs.

source

This is quite typical of your standard blizzard snowfall gradient in Eastern Mass. That dividing line between 6-10" and 3-6" is what varies a bit storm to storm. My hometown has that line running right through it to the southwest of the city, so sometimes we got clobbered and sometimes we just got dustings while a few towns further west towards Worcester would get snowed in. I can remember one winter (1996, the April Fool's Blizzard year) when my high school had only 5 snow days to make up at the end of the year, while a town a few municipalities to the west of us and in the same athletic league, had 15.

[fflint]

And the temperatures vary between Boston city and its suburbs as well. Average January high and low in Boston: 35.8°F, 22.2°F. Average January high and low where I was born, just 18 miles outside Boston city limits: 33.7°F, 16.4°F. That's almost identical to Chicago temps, but with more snowfall.

[MayDay]

I swear some of you have never heard of this crazy concept called "travel". I'm the first to say that around February, winter weather gets old but a few vacation days in a warmer sunnier climate makes all the difference.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

concerning winter, its not just the cold, its the darkness. that combination of soul sapping uggggh is too much for me. ive only lived in northern climates, but i deal with rainy, gray oregon far better then gray, dome of gloom se michigan. its january and february, man i cant handle those two months. in order for snowy winter to be tolerable, id need to be in a huge, extremely dynamic city (chicago, toronto, boston, new york) or someplace with a good winter outdoor scene. the only places like that in the midwest are traverse city, marquette and maybe madison?? denver is kind of the holy grail to me. its SUNNY most of the year. if it cant be temperate, it should at least be sunny.

honestly, i think there can be too much sunlight, sometimes. it's not so much an issue in the winter, but there have been times that i have longed for rainy/cloudy days during a period of unrelenting heat and sunshine. i work out of doors as an environmental professional, so im in tune with the climate/weather. it's mildly embarrasing having a "racoon" pale patch across my eyes from sunglasses and overly tan caucasian skin. i don't like the humidity of the lower midwest, but i've never really complained about the amount of sunshine smack in the middle of the country. a place like dallas would be too much sunshine/heat for me, missouri is bad enough.

[montréaliste]

Winters are cool.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Dr Nevergold

Winter weather in and of itself doesn't bother me throughout a majority of North America. Unless we're talking about ridiculously cold like Yellowknife, NWT, most winters I rather enjoy when December and January come along, but at the end of February/March is when I'm ready for a change. I enjoy the seasonal change.

However, living in one of the most snowy cities in North America, and one of the most snowy of all in America, I learned weather - unfortunately - does play a big factor for many people. Even while living in Buffalo I heard many people whine, moan, complain and witnessed many move to the Carolinas or Florida from my office over the years I lived there.

It wasn't because Buffalo was depressing to them, they actually hate to leave family and friends, but some people just need less or no snow. I don't understand it, because the summer months in Buffalo are just so nice. So are spring and fall, there's no snow for the vast majority of the year.

But its those months between December and March that people just cannot handle and it does apparently affect many people, and without a strong enough economic engine to keep them they leave.

Obviously there's examples like Minneapolis or Boston of booming, northern cities that have a brisk winter with snow, but those cities have strong economies that attract and hold people.

Personally, if I were offered a quality job making $80k a year in Minneapolis, I'd head there tomorrow without a second thought. Weather would be the LAST thing on my mind. But then again, I'd rather enjoy the snow because it doesn't last forever, even in Minneapolis.

^ This cannot be emphasized enough.

Northern cities either need to 1) be interesting, or 2) be the centers of strong economies, or they are fucked.

People up here bitch and moan about the winters all the time. It is almost a way of life to talk about the weather.

In the Chicago area, the region has to contend with people leaving just because they want warmer weather. It's a fact of life. Nothing can be done about this. All the city can pin its hopes on is to be as desirable and interesting of a city as possible. In that way, having a thriving Manhattan-esque central area helps.

What benefits Milwaukee is that it is in the southern portion of the State, and most of its residents are Wisconsonites, Minnesotans, or upper peninsula Michiganders, so for them Milwaukee is already pretty far south. Plus it's a pleasant, if not particularly exciting, city with a lower cost of living.

Detroit has different issues, which have been discussed ad nauseum.