AUSTIN | Transportation Updates

[electricron]

Originally Posted by Novacek

Do you mean as a construction/order option, or as a post-construction retrofit?

It can be done both ways. DCTA was thinking about adding the "C" section into half their existing 2/6 to make some 2/8 GTWs. It does require removing bolts, splitting the train, inserting the new section, and bolting the train together again, not something that can be done during daily operations - but something that might be done overnight - or over a weekend. Likewise, a 2/8 GTW can be converted into a 2/6 version, although I fail to understand why one would want to do that permanently.
Most 2/8 models from the factory have larger power plants (engines) to keep the acceleration the same, but if you're willing to have slower accelerations the existing power plant is sufficient.

When you have as few GTWs that CapMetroRail has now, I wouldn't want to take one out of service to add the additional section as that could interrupt operations, so I would recommend buying them as 2/8. But once the 4 new cars arrive, and there are more spares available and there are far more riders, adding the section one GTW at a time is doable without impacting operations.

[ivanwolf]

I guess if Lone Star had planned on more than one stop in Austin it would be fine. But I never saw anything about more than one stop. I thought it was to be at Amtrak and that's it. The other near stops would have been in the adjacent suburb cities.

Their website only shows one dot for Austin, and that's all I had ever heard about. If more than that was bad on them explaining themselves.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by ivanwolf

I guess if Lone Star had planned on more than one stop in Austin it would be fine. But I never saw anything about more than one stop. I thought it was to be at Amtrak and that's it. The other near stops would have been in the adjacent suburb cities.

Their website only shows one dot for Austin, and that's all I had ever heard about. If more than that was bad on them explaining themselves.

Lone Star was aiming to build train stations around 10 miles apart on average, to keep end to end elapse times down to acceptable levels (less than four hours). The Texas Eagle takes three to three and a half hours to travel between Austin and San Antonio with one stop in San Marcus.
I don't think a train making 10 stops, or 15 stops, can match that. At three hours, you're not going to see many commuters riding from one end to the other end of the line. Most long distance commuters will like to get to their work within a hour. Once you exceed an hour, commuters start looking at other ways to get to work.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by ivanwolf

I guess if Lone Star had planned on more than one stop in Austin it would be fine. But I never saw anything about more than one stop. I thought it was to be at Amtrak and that's it. The other near stops would have been in the adjacent suburb cities.

Their website only shows one dot for Austin, and that's all I had ever heard about. If more than that was bad on them explaining themselves.

This is not true. They had stops planned (at various stages in the process toward building thus far) at multiple locations within Austin, such as Anderson Lane, Mabry/35th, the Domain, and Slaughter Lane.

See these:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...a0598c9480.jpg

https://lintvkxan.files.wordpress.co...-map.jpg?w=650

If passenger service is ever added on the Austin-area MoPac corridor (which, to be honest, is the perfect corridor for passenger rail anyway, with the number of mixed use urban developments taking place immediately adjacent and the potential for higher level urban mixed use at other intersections), these are the potential stop locations. Let us remind ourselves what is at stake by giving up on passenger rail service in this corridor:

Downtown New Braunfels (Schlitterbahn, high activity node, high employment density, major redevelopment potential)
Centerpoint Road (high activity node, Outlet Malls, optimum park and ride location)
Downtown San Marcos (Texas State, high employment density, high activity node, major redevelopment potential)
Aquarena Springs Drive (Bobcat Stadium)
Kyle Crossing (optimum park and ride location, high activity node)
Buda (optimum park and ride location)
Slaughter (optimum park and ride location)
William Cannon (park and ride location)
Stassney (optimum park and ride location, ACC)
290 (optimum park and ride location, St. David's)
South Lamar @ Oltorf, Mary, or Treadwell (high activity node)
Butler Park (high activity node)
Downtown @ 3rd and Lamar (high employment density)
5th @ MoPac (high employment density)
35th (Mabry)
45th (The Grove at Shoal Creek, Post West Austin, Westminster, Mabry)
2222 (major urban redevelopment potential)
Anderson (high activity node)
Domain (second "downtown")
Parmer Lane (optimum park and ride location)
McNeil @ Howard (shitty park and ride location, but we know they'll consider it anyway)
McNeil @ 45 (optimum park and ride location)
Round Rock @ 35 (optimum park and ride location)
Downtown Round Rock (major urban redevelopment potential)
79 @ Dell Diamond (high activity node)
79 @ 130 (optimum park and ride location)
Downtown Taylor (optimum park and ride location, limited urban redevelopment potential)

Not to mention the convenience of being connected to San Antonio and their airport...

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by electricron

Lone Star was aiming to build train stations around 10 miles apart on average, to keep end to end elapse times down to acceptable levels (less than four hours). The Texas Eagle takes three to three and a half hours to travel between Austin and San Antonio with one stop in San Marcus.
I don't think a train making 10 stops, or 15 stops, can match that. At three hours, you're not going to see many commuters riding from one end to the other end of the line. Most long distance commuters will like to get to their work within a hour. Once you exceed an hour, commuters start looking at other ways to get to work.

I wonder if there are ways to make service variable. I.E. have local service within the cities as well as an inter-city option that would by-pass certain stations altogether.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by electricron

The Texas Eagle takes three to three and a half hours to travel between Austin and San Antonio with one stop in San Marcus.

The Lone Star would have been traveling a lot faster than the Texas Eagle, though.

I believe they were planning for top speed of 79 mph (and that being the regulatory limit). *

I think they estimated 1 1/2 hours for express service between Austin and San Antonio.


*and I'm guessing faster acceleration/deceleration too, since the trains would have been shorter than the normal Amtrak sets, at least to start.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

I wonder if there are ways to make service variable. I.E. have local service within the cities as well as an inter-city option that would by-pass certain stations altogether.

It's getting hard to find the documents with the program winding down, but I believe they studied/proposed a mix of local (every stop) and express( downtown Austin and San Antonio and maybe one stop in between).

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Novacek

It's getting hard to find the documents with the program winding down, but I believe they studied/proposed a mix of local (every stop) and express( downtown Austin and San Antonio and maybe one stop in between).

I'd broaden the stops:

Downtown San Antonio
San Antonio International Airport
Downtown New Braunfels
Downtown San Marcos
Downtown Austin
The Domain
Downtown Round Rock

That way you still cut the time needed to traverse relative to both the Eagle (factoring in the speed change) and car traffic, but also keeps the need for the express train to pass local trains at a minimum by introducing more stops on the express route. You also hit all the major employment cores as well as commuter routes into those cores thus fostering the greatest number of commuter usage at both levels of service (which would be a boon to ridership as a whole).

[drummer]

^ I would still add a stop in downtown Georgetown as it's growing like crazy right now, but that's neither here nor there at this point. Beyond that, I think the stops you proposed would meet the need for that type of train service. It's a commuter rail proposal, not a streetcar. Let local buses/future streetcars take people from those nodes.

By the way, thanks to all for the replies to my question regarding number of cars.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by Novacek

The Lone Star would have been traveling a lot faster than the Texas Eagle, though.

I believe they were planning for top speed of 79 mph (and that being the regulatory limit). *

I think they estimated 1 1/2 hours for express service between Austin and San Antonio.


*and I'm guessing faster acceleration/deceleration too, since the trains would have been shorter than the normal Amtrak sets, at least to start.

79 mph regulatory limit is based on the condition of the tracks. The Texas Eagle could go 79 mph if the tracks allowed it. So Lone Star Rail was going to refurbish and upgrade that corridor to make that 90 minute schedule.

Per the Texas Eagle schedule published by Amtrak, it's 83 rail miles between Austin and San Antonio stations. It would take a train averaging 55.333 mph to make the trip in 90 minutes.

The TRE takes 59 minutes to travel 34 rail miles between downtown Dallas and Fort Worth with 8 intermediate stations. It averages 34.1 mph with all the station stops along the way.

83 miles (more than twice as far) with 4 intermediate stations (half the number of station stops) Lone Star Rail should average a higher speed, but I'm having problems expecting a 20 mph average speed increase.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by electricron

79 mph regulatory limit is based on the condition of the tracks. The Texas Eagle could go 79 mph is the tracks allowed it. So TexRail was going to refurbish and upgrade that corridor to make that 90 minute schedule.

Per the Texas Eagle schedule published by Amtrak, it's 83 rail miles between Austin and San Antonio stations. It would take a train averaging 55.333 mph to make the trip in 90 minutes.

The TRE takes an 59 minutes to travel 34 rail miles between downtown Dallas and Fort Worth with 8 intermediate stations. It averages 34.1 mph with all the station stops along the way.

83 miles (more than twice as far) with 4 intermediate stations (half the number of station stops) Lone Star Rail should average a higher speed, but I'm having problems expecting a 20 mph average speed increase.

Hmm, I'm guessing, like the red line, the TRE must see significant slowdowns from curves and low speed urban travel.

For instance, the red line goes 32 miles in about 54 minutes (according to the current timetable), with 7 intermediate stations. And there's some pretty inefficient curves on the red line, and it goes pretty slow Kramer and below.

Let's look at just the outer 2 stations. Leander to Lakeline is 13 minutes, 10 miles, for 46 mph. And as far as I know, the red line never goes 79 mph. And that's still with a pretty bad curve in there.

A 55 mph average speed over the longer distance seems pretty reasonable.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

I wonder if there are ways to make service variable. I.E. have local service within the cities as well as an inter-city option that would by-pass certain stations altogether.

There's two ways to accomplish a local and express service on the same rail corridor. (1) Have the express depart the initial station a minute before the local train. This way, the express will have a clear track until it catches up with the previous local that left whatever the headways are (10-15-20 minutes) before. On a very long corridor, like Lone Star was proposing, eventually the express will catch the previous local. The problem with this are the passengers waiting at the local train's stop watching the express fly through their station, which will anger them! (2) Have an additional track placed appropriately so the express train can pass the local. On busy rail lines, that could mean a third or fourth track. There will still be occasions where those waiting for the local train will see the express fly by angering them. Expresses are hated more than they are loved.

[Jdawgboy]

Seems a bit unfair that the LStar rail would have a stop at SA's airport but due to the rail alignment, won't for ABIA which is by far the bigger port with more direct flights. Austin would not have the best stops because the line simply goes through the city but doesn't really directly connect to anything. The DT stop is removed, unless they build the stop east of Lamar and even then it would be on the western edge of DT. Then you have a couple of miles of track that is wedged in the middle of traffic clogged Mopac. Simply put, the line was designed to get through Austin, not serve it.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by Jdawgboy

Austin would not have the best stops because the line simply goes through the city but doesn't really directly connect to anything. Then you have a couple of miles of track that is wedged in the middle of traffic clogged Mopac. Simply put, the line was designed to get through Austin, not serve it.

Regional trains don't stop at every neighborhood like light rail trains, or every few blocks like streetcars, or every other block like buses. The longer the line, the further apart the station stops must be if you want a faster average speed. So on longer lines like Lone Star, one station per town and two stations per city is relatively good.
Here's a good analogy one can check looking at three train schedules, Amtrak's Surfliner vs the total for Metrolink and Coaster for the lines serving LA to SD over the same 123 miles of track.
Surfliner runs by all, but stops at only 14 stations. Metrolink's Orange Line stops at 13 stations, and Coaster stops at 7 stations. That's 21 stations for the locals, and 14 for the through.

It's a little unfair to suggest the MoPac freeway was there first before the MoPac tracks were laid. Hint, the name of the freeway should have suggest that the truth was just the opposite, the tracks were there before the freeway. The warehouse district in Austn was located along 3rd and 5th streets, where much of the new skyscraper construction has been occurring in recent years. That's why there is an abandoned rail bridge on the east side of the wye near the Amtrak train station, and why the Red Line ends at the convention center. These railroad dead ends used to be tied together. So the railroads used to serve rail customers better in Austin - it's a sad state affairs these customers left.

[ivanwolf]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

This is not true. They had stops planned (at various stages in the process toward building thus far) at multiple locations within Austin, such as Anderson Lane, Mabry/35th, the Domain, and Slaughter Lane.

See these:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...a0598c9480.jpg

https://lintvkxan.files.wordpress.co...-map.jpg?w=650

Thanks for the insight, I never once had seen those maps showing more than one stop in the Austin area. They must have been hidden or I just missed them, I only remember the one on their site now with one dot/stop for Austin. I've been here a long time and swear they talked more about it being for the long distance Austin/SA commuters and not for the locals. Maybe I just tuned out and stopped paying attention. I hope we do one day get to utilize the MoPac tracks for some kind of commuter train.

[ATXboom]

Lets bury I35! Please sign the request!!

https://secure.everyaction.com/mT-SAnt6EE2GiFjPE_XBEA2

[clubtokyo]

Originally Posted by ATXboom

Lets bury I35! Please sign the request!!

https://secure.everyaction.com/mT-SAnt6EE2GiFjPE_XBEA2

Signed!

[wwmiv]

Signed.

[N90]

Aye

[Jdawgboy]

Originally Posted by electricron

It's a little unfair to suggest the MoPac freeway was there first before the MoPac tracks were laid. Hint, the name of the freeway should have suggest that the truth was just the opposite, the tracks were there before the freeway. The warehouse district in Austn was located along 3rd and 5th streets, where much of the new skyscraper construction has been occurring in recent years. That's why there is an abandoned rail bridge on the east side of the wye near the Amtrak train station, and why the Red Line ends at the convention center. These railroad dead ends used to be tied together. So the railroads used to serve rail customers better in Austin - it's a sad state affairs these customers left.

I never suggested that the line was put in place first. The expressway was added later hence why us locals call it Mopac.

I do agree that it is unfortunate that the tracks running down 4th were not utilized between the cc and Seaholm. That is something that we are paying for with regret. At least im regretting it.