HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Pacific West > Sacramento Area


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1121  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2015, 10:33 PM
ozone's Avatar
ozone ozone is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sacramento California
Posts: 2,270
Sacramento seeks to demolish, rebuild public housing projects

Gee I wonder of SacMod is going to have a hissy fit over this too? Something tells me they are not.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1122  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2015, 5:37 AM
wburg's Avatar
wburg wburg is offline
Hindrance to Development
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,402
Fair enough, I failed to take into account the social and economic strata that developers occupy in our society. Please substitute the word "meth" in my above post with the word "cocaine."
__________________
"Old ideas can sometimes use new buildings. New ideas must use old buildings."--Jane Jacobs
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1123  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2015, 5:44 AM
wburg's Avatar
wburg wburg is offline
Hindrance to Development
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatDarnSacramentan View Post
I'm aware, I've been here long enough. I might as well say something like keeping all these "historical" buildings downtown is like keeping the preserved corpse of a loved one in your house. It's completely baseless, vulgar, and intellectually insulting.
This makes no sense whatsoever. It's tricky to compare houses to people, but it's not as though old buildings can't continue to be used as buildings for many decades or even centuries, as we see by all the old buildings that are still in economic use. Do you think that "historic preservation" means just letting old buildings sit vacant and unused? It's not--the idea is that these buildings are still useful and valuable, and being old also makes them more special, more interesting, more rare. They're not something to be disposed of just because they're old, but they're saved to remain as useful, active buildings--places where people live, or work, or play. Healthy cities are a mixture of old and new--a walk through a city is a walk through time. Denying ourselves the architectural and historic legacy of a city takes away much of its beauty, its legacy, and its visual interest.

To take your analogy farther, perhaps to the ridiculous extreme, do you believe that people older than a certain age should be killed off, even if they're still active and good health, because you think they're "functionally obsolete", to make way for new people? That we refrain from murdering old people only through some sort of irrational attachment that we should just get over? "Sorry pal, it's time to kill your grandma, but hey, we'll take a photo of her and maybe make a nice plaque for her to remember her by!"
__________________
"Old ideas can sometimes use new buildings. New ideas must use old buildings."--Jane Jacobs
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1124  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2015, 5:47 AM
wburg's Avatar
wburg wburg is offline
Hindrance to Development
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozone View Post
Sacramento seeks to demolish, rebuild public housing projects

Gee I wonder of SacMod is going to have a hissy fit over this too? Something tells me they are not.
SacMod focuses specifically on mid-century resources, so their involvement tends to be limited to properties of that era, like Capitol Towers, and they are also very active in preservation and restoration of neon signs. New Helvetia (the original name for "Alder Grove") isn't really within their scope of expertise, although maybe they'll weigh in on it at some point.

However, there are folks concerned about demolition of the New Helvetia housing projects, which is a National Register listed historic district, and working on a way to rehab those buildings (the ones in the northern part of the complex towards Broadway, rather than the Seavey Circle development farther south) and integrate new infill into the complex as an alternative to wholesale demolition and replacement.
__________________
"Old ideas can sometimes use new buildings. New ideas must use old buildings."--Jane Jacobs

Last edited by wburg; Jun 14, 2015 at 3:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1125  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2015, 5:52 AM
wburg's Avatar
wburg wburg is offline
Hindrance to Development
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by snfenoc View Post
What do you mean by, "it's working"?

Don't any of you remember....say 10 years ago when Sacramento had proposals up to its eyeballs? Show me something more than a few projects (that would have gotten built anyway) and a bunch of POTENTIAL developments to justify this 250 million dollar investment.

I don't agree with wburg on A LOT of things and he annoys me sometimes, but these responses are just plain rude and disrespectful. He makes a good point...give the arena some credit for creating buzz, but we'd still see development and excitement and pretty drawings in the Business Journal without it. Not to mention, the city would have less debt.
During boom markets everyone seems to think that they're going to last forever, until they crash. The relentless marketing campaign around the arena has gotten some buzz, but a lot of that buzz seems to have more to do with the relentless marketing campaign than with the arena itself. A lot of the back-patting going on, about how awesome things are going to be in a few years seem a tad premature, reminds me a lot of the back-patting that was happening in 1993 when America Live and the rebooted Downtown Plaza opened, and then around the height of the real estate bubble in 2006-2007...until the buzz wore off.
__________________
"Old ideas can sometimes use new buildings. New ideas must use old buildings."--Jane Jacobs

Last edited by wburg; Jun 14, 2015 at 3:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1126  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2015, 5:16 PM
travis bickle travis bickle is offline
silly slackergeek
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 470
Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
Yes, public-funded arenas can cause excitement, activity and a sense of euphoria. So does cocaine. But there are some unpleasant side effects to that substance.

Those who pay attention to things in cities other than Sacramento will note that there's an economic boom going on, our closest urban neighbor is undergoing an unprecedented economic cycle that pushed its land values above New York, and there is also a nationwide shift back to urban centers, especially in second-order cities like Sacramento. So yeah, I'd suspect these larger economic factors have a bigger overall effect on the local market, but the arena has given it, well, let's call it a "bump."

As to relaxed parking requirements and historic rehab, well, a lot of the projects generating the most excitement are due to the recently enacted zoning code, that made a lot more urban projects possible (through things like eliminating parking minimums) including the arena, which, as you may recall, has a very small parking lot. Some are due to other subtle changes, like three-lane one-way streets being converted to two-lane streets with bike lanes--resulting increase in bike and pedestrian activity made businesses flourish along those routes, since nobody wants to stop and shop on the pseudo-highway. And some of the most exciting projects in the city are taking place in historic properties being rehabbed. These are projects facilitated through changes in code. They have contributed to the central city's overall economic health, mostly through projects entitled before the arena plan was finalized, by adding new housing--we're already up about 2000 housing units since 2010, which, considering there were 20,000 units then, means about a 10% population increase in 4 years, not counting units vacant in 2010 due to foreclosure that are now largely occupied. The cocaine has resulted in banks being a bit freer with money--again, we'll see if the long-term difference pans out. We were largely on an economic upswing.

It's not an all-or-NOTHING thing, but, at best, the arena is one of many factors occurring right now, some healthy, some not-so-healthy. I'm not of the "make no small plans" school of thought--cities are made up of thousands of small plans, that add up to far more than the sum of their parts, and things like code changes or having the existing urban fabric to rehab can make a large systemic difference, even if it's not one Big Shiny Thing everyone can point to. The potential problem is, what happens when we get to the bottom of the arena cocaine bag and the buzz wears off? Buy another bag, or crash?
Well, despite an original bitter first couple of sentences (which apparently compared the new arena to meth-heads (really Bill?), there's a good point in this angry little diatribe. There are a myriad of factors that contribute to a city's development and prosperity. Many of them are small and subtle, but some are big and clear and even flashy.

The foundation of them all is the business cycle and overall health of the economy, which wburg references is other posts as well. One of the things I was most proud of with The Village at Sacramento State was how we were bucking the economy by bringing a funded $500 million project to Sac State in the middle of a crippling recession (remember, that was 2008-2010).

If the project is superb, it can overcome a weak market, but it really has to be incredible with a ton of factors going its way to attract capital. Most projects, even the good ones, don't meet that standard.

So if we were still in the depth of the recession, it is unlikely we would see the catalystic, economic impact we are seeing now from a downtown arena. The ancillary development in downtown Sacramento as a result of the new arena undoubtedly benefits from a growing economy.

It also benefits from the confidence such a project shows for Sacramento. Don't underestimate this. Developers and investors want to be part of energetic and frankly, "cool" communities that reflect a swagger (if you will) and confidence by citizens who believe in themselves and their city. Kimpton doesn't come to Sacramento without it no matter what the pro formas say (the pro formas wouldn't be believed without it).

I think Sacramento was severely damaged by a lack of confidence in the last boom. It started to believe in itself about six months too late, and it cost them.

With the new arena, or any other catalyst development, the question is "How much of the development in this new cycle would have happened anyway? How much of it would had been completed without the additional debt?"

Those are completely legitimate questions that posters here like wburg and snfenoc are absolutely right to ask.

In San Diego, we saw two distinct periods of growth downtown as a result of catalyst development. The first was in the late 80s/early 90s in the Gaslamp and Marina with the completion of the convention center (and don't believe those who cite Horton Plaza. It did nothing to spark development downtown. Still a nice project mind you, but very few people moved downtown because of it.). The second has picked up (with the economy) in East Village following the completion of Petco Park.

When you ask planners, city officials, developers and residents what impact these two projects had on Downtown, the common thought seems to fall in a net increase of between 30-40% (in terms of investment) in the adjacent neighborhoods than what would have occurred without the projects.

Based on my own experience, I think this is pretty accurate and probably the range you can expect in Sacramento. Catalysts like a new arena can't produce fundamental changes unto themselves (nether can zoning changes or relaxed parking requirements et. al.), but if the timing is right, they can super-charge a community and produce investment results significantly superior to any other single factor and/or what would have occurred otherwise.

As to the sneering little comparison of new arenas to vicious drug abuse. Well, there are wburgs in every community. There is nothing unique about them. They often proclaim lofty goals and desires to work together to find solutions, but after they lose a couple of rounds and their resentment reaches constipation anger levels, the mask inevitably comes off. It's never pretty.

Sacramento is in outstanding position for an absolute renaissance that will be unmatched for several generations. The downtown you will thrive in in 10 years will be unrecognizable from what you see today.

I envy you...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1127  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2015, 3:16 PM
wburg's Avatar
wburg wburg is offline
Hindrance to Development
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,402
Council approves new dog park for midtown Sacramento

Quote:
The Sacramento City Council approved a plan Tuesday night to construct a dog park and community garden in a new park that replaces a long-vacant plot on the southwest corner of 19th and Q streets. The city will name the park after civic watchdog and longtime midtown activist Brooks Truitt.
...
Councilman Steve Hansen, who represents the central city, asked that the park be named after Truitt, who was instrumental in the preservation of many historic buildings along nearby R Street and elsewhere in the area. Truitt died in May 2014 at the age of 89.

“A lot of the things we’re seeing come to fruition (in midtown) were because of his dogged leadership and in knowing there was more to this area than just a warehouse district or just some state offices,” Hansen said. “Brooks was a hero to many and helped preserve so much.”
This is pretty cool--the city purchased this lot, formerly the center of a railroad "wye" used by Western Pacific until the 1980s, and the site of a SMUD substation. Lots was already spent on toxic remediation. Anyone who lives in Midtown know how many dogs there are, especially small dogs, so this park will certainly gets used, and the location is perfect--pretty sure it will make the SKK project across the street more attractive to renters, as well as the retail and restaurant uses nearby.
__________________
"Old ideas can sometimes use new buildings. New ideas must use old buildings."--Jane Jacobs
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1128  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2015, 10:31 PM
LandofFrost's Avatar
LandofFrost LandofFrost is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 195
http://www.bizjournals.com/sacrament...-downtown.html




So basically Macys is doing nothing to the exterior of their building and adding more departments to an already over crowded and dated interior.

/rant

I wonder how long Macys is going to be around, if you walk around the store they have pretty much dumped all their hi-end lines with the exception of all-Clad pots and polo shirts (which are not included in any of their sales, ever).

/rant
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1129  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2015, 11:07 PM
Majin's Avatar
Majin Majin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Downtown Sacramento
Posts: 2,221
What the hell

Add Macys to the list of slumlords downtown that need to get ED'ed. They are nearly as bad as Westfield. I really hope the kings put a lot of pressure to either sell the building or seriously remodel the exterior. Or the city jumps in and ED'ed the property.
__________________
Majin Crew: jsf8278, wburg, daverave
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1130  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2015, 12:09 AM
wburg's Avatar
wburg wburg is offline
Hindrance to Development
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,402
They're going to clean and paint, and what some might call "dated" others would call "classic." And there's no surprise that they aren't putting forth a lot of high end inventory while construction is limiting customers, but there's nothing about an older building that would limit what they can merchandise in conjunction with the arena opening and presumed subsequent increase in foot traffic. Unless your definition of "nothing" is "not a new skyscraper" as it so often is here. Sorry about your chronic ED problems, Majin.
__________________
"Old ideas can sometimes use new buildings. New ideas must use old buildings."--Jane Jacobs
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1131  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2015, 2:05 AM
Web Web is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 523
Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
They're going to clean and paint, and what some might call "dated" others would call "classic." And there's no surprise that they aren't putting forth a lot of high end inventory while construction is limiting customers, but there's nothing about an older building that would limit what they can merchandise in conjunction with the arena opening and presumed subsequent increase in foot traffic. Unless your definition of "nothing" is "not a new skyscraper" as it so often is here. Sorry about your chronic ED problems, Majin.
They did install a lot of solar panels on the roof
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1132  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2015, 2:50 AM
jbradway jbradway is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
They're going to clean and paint, and what some might call "dated" others would call "classic." And there's no surprise that they aren't putting forth a lot of high end inventory while construction is limiting customers, but there's nothing about an older building that would limit what they can merchandise in conjunction with the arena opening and presumed subsequent increase in foot traffic. Unless your definition of "nothing" is "not a new skyscraper" as it so often is here. Sorry about your chronic ED problems, Majin.
Like about 6 of you and your buddies at Sac Modern think it's classic. Almost everyone I've talked to was hoping that the outside would get a face lift. People on twitter are already getting irate.

Did you want to save this garbage too?

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1133  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2015, 3:19 AM
wburg's Avatar
wburg wburg is offline
Hindrance to Development
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbradway View Post
Like about 6 of you and your buddies at Sac Modern think it's classic. Almost everyone I've talked to was hoping that the outside would get a face lift. People on twitter are already getting irate.

Did you want to save this garbage too?

I was 17 when they tore that stuff out, I didn't cry any tears over it. Pedestrian shopping malls in urban core streets were never a particularly good idea. If you can't tell the difference between the architecture of the Macy's and EDAW's failed attempt to create functional public space on K Street, I'm not quite sure what to tell you--it's apples-and-oranges, as other than being built in the same decade they don't share much relationship in terms of design or function.

My condolences to you and your 6 buddies on Twitter who were hoping Macy's would build the Burj Khalifa on that spot. SacMod generally draws more than a thousand people for their biannual tours--so I'd hardly consider MCM appreciation a niche interest, though it does take a certain level of sophistication to appreciate.
__________________
"Old ideas can sometimes use new buildings. New ideas must use old buildings."--Jane Jacobs
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1134  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2015, 5:57 AM
Web Web is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 523
Unhappy

Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
I was 17 when they tore that stuff out, I didn't cry any tears over it. Pedestrian shopping malls in urban core streets were never a particularly good idea. If you can't tell the difference between the architecture of the Macy's and EDAW's failed attempt to create functional public space on K Street, I'm not quite sure what to tell you--it's apples-and-oranges, as other than being built in the same decade they don't share much relationship in terms of design or function.

My condolences to you and your 6 buddies on Twitter who were hoping Macy's would build the Burj Khalifa on that spot. SacMod generally draws more than a thousand people for their biannual tours--so I'd hardly consider MCM appreciation a niche interest, though it does take a certain level of sophistication to appreciate.
there are people in that postcard. Even openiing up K to traffic no one uses it.whenever I turn on it no other cars and the people walking think I am a tourist who turned on a lightrail/pedestri area. opening up K st in my eyes failure and a waste of cash
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1135  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2015, 4:24 PM
ThatDarnSacramentan ThatDarnSacramentan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
My condolences to you and your 6 buddies on Twitter who were hoping Macy's would build the Burj Khalifa on that spot. SacMod generally draws more than a thousand people for their biannual tours--so I'd hardly consider MCM appreciation a niche interest, though it does take a certain level of sophistication to appreciate.
What a lovely false equivalency. Yes, anything any one of us wants to see renovated or altered must immediately be torn down for skyscrapers. Or, you know, maybe we don't mind it sticking around with some minor alterations. I can tell you that when I make improvements around the house, I certainly don't intend to try and get a 5+2 apartment building built. You know, have some sense. Yes, many of us like skyscrapers. Maybe that's why we're on SKYSCRAPERPAGE. That doesn't mean all we want to see everywhere is a damn skyscraper. I'd hardly call that Macy's a gem of modernism, especially when there are still several malls throughout this state with similar looking department stores, even in places like Modesto. I'd say the Century domes on Arden are more worthy of preserving, but I'm just a dirty lil' Millennial who wants an endless sea of 60 stories from the Sacramento River all the way to Alhambra.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1136  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2015, 4:44 PM
Majin's Avatar
Majin Majin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Downtown Sacramento
Posts: 2,221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Web View Post
there are people in that postcard. Even openiing up K to traffic no one uses it.whenever I turn on it no other cars and the people walking think I am a tourist who turned on a lightrail/pedestri area. opening up K st in my eyes failure and a waste of cash
100% Agree. Waste of money/time. But in my opinion it didnt really do any harm since as you say few few people use it and it's closed on the weekend nights anyway.
__________________
Majin Crew: jsf8278, wburg, daverave
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1137  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2015, 4:56 PM
Mr. Ozo Mr. Ozo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbradway View Post

Did you want to save this garbage too?

Interesting choice as every building in this picture is still standing in varying states of remodel. (I know you were referring to the street).

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1138  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2015, 7:10 PM
jbradway jbradway is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
I was 17 when they tore that stuff out, I didn't cry any tears over it. Pedestrian shopping malls in urban core streets were never a particularly good idea. If you can't tell the difference between the architecture of the Macy's and EDAW's failed attempt to create functional public space on K Street, I'm not quite sure what to tell you--it's apples-and-oranges, as other than being built in the same decade they don't share much relationship in terms of design or function.

My condolences to you and your 6 buddies on Twitter who were hoping Macy's would build the Burj Khalifa on that spot. SacMod generally draws more than a thousand people for their biannual tours--so I'd hardly consider MCM appreciation a niche interest, though it does take a certain level of sophistication to appreciate.
I actually like MCM and there are plenty of great examples that should be preserved. Macy's is NOT one of them.

Open it up a little bit with some windows and change the street entrance. It already suffers from isolating itself from L st by the garage being at street level. The ramp up to the entrance is the first thing I would get rid of and create a street level entrance and then use escalators and ramps inside the store to get to the first floor. It would be worth losing a little bit of the garage space if needed.

The concrete arched canopies, window frames and roof overhangs look terrible combined with the stone work at the base. Paint isn't going to change that. I would remove those. I actually like the vertical stone mosaic tiled panels that dominate the outside. I think they can be complimented a lot better than what the architect Bolles came up with. He tried to contrast the stone work and the rounded features. There was enough contrast in the different stone work that the round modern features were overkill.

So yeah if I fail to marvel at what I consider a failed concept by Bolles, I guess I am just not sophisticated enough for you... I'm sure I'll manage.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1139  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2015, 10:24 PM
creamcityleo79's Avatar
creamcityleo79 creamcityleo79 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Robbinsdale, MN
Posts: 1,787
Ice Blocks fire reignited!? WTF!?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1140  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2015, 4:08 PM
wburg's Avatar
wburg wburg is offline
Hindrance to Development
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,402
yep, a couple of times. They're still letting the site cool off enough to start an investigation because when they start moving things it exposes hot spots to air and they reignite.
__________________
"Old ideas can sometimes use new buildings. New ideas must use old buildings."--Jane Jacobs
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Pacific West > Sacramento Area
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 7:15 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.