What old money neighborhoods stayed intact?

[Docere]

In US cities, "rich flight" was well underway as early as the 1920s, and in many cities in the postwar years virtually all the wealthy had fled. What rich neighborhoods in city limits stayed intact?

[Steely Dan]

The Gold Coast is chicago's prime example.

[Chef]

Cathedral Hill in St Paul is one. It is a classic Victorian era upscale neighborhood that is still largely intact. I did a photo tour of it years ago:

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=190827

[mhays]

Lots of Seattle examples, all single-family-oriented. Here are examples close to the core, some quite suburban:

Much of Queen Anne Hill:
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6243.../data=!3m1!1e3

The back side of Capitol Hill:
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6259.../data=!3m1!1e3

Some of the near side of Capitol Hill:
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6252.../data=!3m1!1e3

Madison Park:
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6298.../data=!3m1!1e3

Leschi:
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.5992.../data=!3m1!1e3

Magnolia:
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6385.../data=!3m1!1e3

[Docere]

Seattle is almost like a Canadian city in this respect. The affluent never really left the city proper, although some newer money suburban areas developed in the eastern suburbs. You have upper class early 20th century SFH neighborhoods in city limits. Meanwhile, you have a large swath of blue collar suburbs in the southern sector, akin to maybe Surrey, BC or the area around Pearson Airport in Toronto.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Docere

Seattle is almost like a Canadian city in this respect. The affluent never really left the city proper, although some newer money suburban areas developed in the eastern suburbs. You have upper class early 20th century SFH neighborhoods in city limits. Meanwhile, you have a large swath of blue collar suburbs in the southern sector, akin to maybe Surrey, BC or the area around Pearson Airport in Toronto.

It's an uncomfortable conversation, but the U.S. cities demographically most like Canadian cities (i.e. marginal population of African Americans) had almost none of the racial trauma of postwar America and more or less developed like Canadian cities. Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis to some extent, are Canadianish. Postwar wealth flight was limited in the absence of rapid racial change. American postwar carnage probably had less to do with freeways and stupid planning policies than race.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Crawford

It's an uncomfortable conversation, but the U.S. cities demographically most like Canadian cities (i.e. marginal population of African Americans) had almost none of the racial trauma of postwar America and more or less developed like Canadian cities. Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis to some extent, are Canadianish. Postwar wealth flight was limited in the absence of rapid racial change. American postwar carnage probably had less to do with freeways and stupid planning policies than race.

Isn’t that largely limited to Seattle and maybe Minneapolis though?

Both Portland and Denver had and have massive racial issues.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

Isn’t that largely limited to Seattle and maybe Minneapolis though?

Both Portland and Denver had and have massive racial issues.

How so? Portland and Denver have relatively tiny black populations.

Both cities have no devastated urban neighborhoods, no race riots, and in both, the wealth remained in the city proper. They both seem very Canadian.

[Crawford]

You mean maintained their status, really, right? All the old money circa-1940 Detroit neighborhoods are intact, but none maintained their status. Grosse Pointe is intact and still very prosperous, but is no longer the region's wealth center, so has been knocked down a few notches. There's also a small wealthy enclave in Dearborn that was full of auto execs, and it's still nice and desirable, but real wealth moved elsewhere.

[Docere]

Yes, remained their status/position would be more accurate.

[Wigs]

This playlist of the history of cities Millionaire's Rows is interesting
Cities featured:
Pittsburgh
Cleveland
St. Louis
Detroit
Manhattan
Chicago
Seattle
Buffalo
Philadelphia
Mobile, AL
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL...Ys69WErJOlhJr9

[pj3000]

Pittsburgh

Fox Chapel, Highland Park, Mt. Lebanon, Sewickley, Shadyside, Squirrel Hill

All founded as wealthy areas. All remain wealthy areas.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Pittsburgh

Fox Chapel, Highland Park, Mt. Lebanon, Sewickley, Shadyside, Squirrel Hill

All founded as wealthy areas. All remain wealthy areas.

Of course Fox Chapel, Sewickley, and Mt. Lebanon are not actually in the city. Plus the actual wealth in "Sewickley" isn't in the borough proper, it's in other municipalities in the school system, like Edgeworth, Sewickley Hills, and Sewickley Heights. Sewickley proper is more modest in terms of wealth (median household income of $78,000 according to Justice Map). The Sewickley area was 100% an old money enclave though - built up as a railroad suburb by North Side wealth once they decamped from Allegheny West and Manchester.

I'd also argue Mt. Lebanon was was never an "old money" area though, it was just an upper-middle class area. Looking at real estate listings you can still get houses there for under $300,000, the average listing seems to be around $500,000, and only a handful of homes are $1 million+. It was built out in the interwar period as a suburb for doctors, lawyers, and mid-level managers.

Within the city, I think it's unquestionable that Shadyside and Squirrel Hill (North of Forbes) have been the wealthy areas, with some spillover, like parts of Point Breeze and the Schenley Farms area of Oakland. It's hard to detect the considerable wealth in Shadyside these days looking at median household income however, because the main corridors surrounding the wealthiest portion of Shadyside were converted during the mid-20th century into apartments, and ultimately became student slums. The juxtaposition of the old 19th century homes and the mid-century infill as the estates were broken up is quite weird though - showcasing the area did go "downhill" for a bit in the mid 20th century.

I'd say Highland Park isn't in the same boat though. It resisted white flight, but clearly went downhill more sharply from the 1950s through the 1980s in the areas bordering East Liberty. The area up on the hill west of N Highland maintained itself as kinda a mini-Squirrel Hill though.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Of course Fox Chapel, Sewickley, and Mt. Lebanon are not actually in the city. Plus the actual wealth in "Sewickley" isn't in the borough proper, it's in other municipalities in the school system, like Edgeworth, Sewickley Hills, and Sewickley Heights. Sewickley proper is more modest in terms of wealth (median household income of $78,000 according to Justice Map). The Sewickley area was 100% an old money enclave though - built up as a railroad suburb by North Side wealth once they decamped from Allegheny West and Manchester.

I'd also argue Mt. Lebanon was was never an "old money" area though, it was just an upper-middle class area. Looking at real estate listings you can still get houses there for under $300,000, the average listing seems to be around $500,000, and only a handful of homes are $1 million+. It was built out in the interwar period as a suburb for doctors, lawyers, and mid-level managers.

Within the city, I think it's unquestionable that Shadyside and Squirrel Hill (North of Forbes) have been the wealthy areas, with some spillover, like parts of Point Breeze and the Schenley Farms area of Oakland. It's hard to detect the considerable wealth in Shadyside these days looking at median household income however, because the main corridors surrounding the wealthiest portion of Shadyside were converted during the mid-20th century into apartments, and ultimately became student slums. The juxtaposition of the old 19th century homes and the mid-century infill as the estates were broken up is quite weird though - showcasing the area did go "downhill" for a bit in the mid 20th century.

I'd say Highland Park isn't in the same boat though. It resisted white flight, but clearly went downhill more sharply from the 1950s through the 1980s in the areas bordering East Liberty. The area up on the hill west of N Highland maintained itself as kinda a mini-Squirrel Hill though.

Yeah, I was speaking in location generalities and using the "old money" term rather loosely.

Fox Chapel and Sewickley... yes, east ender and north sider estate-type wealth that goes back centuries in some cases.

Mt. Lebanon, like Squirrel Hill, is a big "neighborhood". Both probably have what 30k residents or so?... with a pretty diverse mix of housing types and income levels. True, Mt. Lebanon isn't "old money"... but rather an upper class suburb that has remained so throughout its existence. For Squirrel Hill and Shadyside, I was speaking generally to encompass Point Breeze as well... obviously quite a mix of incomes these days, but still have maintained as long-standing pockets of wealth within the city limits.

I hear what you're saying about Highland Park, given that a significant chunk of it that fell far out of desirability. However, it was one of Pittsburgh's original "mansion neighborhoods". Some of the original gilded age mansions from the late 1800s/early 1900s remain, but most of them that lined N Highland were torn down by the 1930s... most only existing for a few decades. You can still see some of the stone walls where they stood, now occupied by 1930s Tudors and 1950s ranch style homes. It certainly doesn't have the breadth and consistency of wealth like one finds in Squirrel Hill, but Highland Park was established as a wealthy area, and remained intact as just that... even though parts of it declined substantially.

[benp]

Buffalo Old Money areas that have maintained wealthy residents.

Delaware District - central core between Allentown neighborhood up to Olmsted Parkways, includes Millionaires Row - homes mainly from 1830s to 1910s, along with turn of the 20th century luxury apartments

Bidwell - Along and near Olmsted Parkways south of Delaware Park - mainly from 1870s to 1910s

Park Meadow - Nortwest of Delaware Park on former grounds of 1901 Pan American Exposition

Central Park - North Buffalo - mainly from 1890s to 1930s

Parkside - East of Delaware Park - Olmsted designed from 1880s to 1910s

[pj3000]

This thread topic… I don’t think we’re going to uncover anything here.

Every rustbelt city has neighborhoods that have remained wealthy, desirable areas since the 1920s

[Docere]

Originally Posted by pj3000

This thread topic… I don’t think we’re going to uncover anything here.

Every rustbelt city has neighborhoods that have remained wealthy, desirable areas since the 1920s

Within city limits?* Sounds like most of the wealth departed Cleveland in the 1920s and was pretty much all gone by the 1950s?

https://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/10

* I guess I should have made that clearer in the OP.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Docere

Within city limits?* Sounds like most of the wealth departed Cleveland in the 1920s and was pretty much all gone by the 1950s?

https://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/10

* I guess I should have made that clearer in the OP.

I don't think any prewar wealth concentrations are in Metro Detroit either, at least not to the same extent as in the past. All are still reasonably desirable neighborhoods, none have the same status. Palmer Woods, the richest neighborhood within city proper, is very nice, but no way is it among the top regional wealth concentrations.

Cleveland might have no such neighborhoods within city limits, however. But Shaker Heights and Cleveland Heights are more or less the same thing.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I don't think any prewar wealth concentrations are in Metro Detroit either, at least not to the same extent as in the past. All are still reasonably desirable neighborhoods, none have the same status. Palmer Woods, the richest neighborhood within city proper, is very nice, but no way is it among the top regional wealth concentrations.

Cleveland might have no such neighborhoods within city limits, however. But Shaker Heights and Cleveland Heights are more or less the same thing.

Pretty much every North American metro (except maybe Phoenix or Orlando or Las Vegas) has a 1920s era wealthy SFH area I think.

[Docere]

Palmer Woods is in Detroit city limits but it has a population of 800 people. It's predominantly Black.

Nothing in Cleveland city limits. According to Statisticalatlas, the highest income census tract has a median HH of $77k.