Halifax Stadium Discussion

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Maybe Halifax should have decided to pursue the Commonwealth Games, and they might have had a better stadium at fewer local dollars than what this is going to end up being.

Halifax would spend more local dollars to host the typical major sporting event than it would if it simply built the stadium on its own, and even more than the current proposal.

The CWGs fizzled after the budget ballooned from something like $700M up to north of $1B, years ago. Total cost of the Pan Am games of which the Hamilton stadium was a part was approximately $2.5B. Just the security budget of a major sporting event would be more than a new stadium for Halifax these days.

[q12]

https://www.halifaxtoday.ca/local-ne...oposal-1848637

NEWS RELEASE
SCHOONER SPORTS AND ENTERTAINMENT
*************************
Schooner Sports and Entertainment (SSE) has submitted an amendment to their proposal to Halifax Regional Municipality (HRM) for the development of a new community stadium.

The HRM Community Stadium proposal amendment mitigates HRM's risk, provides an option for a new ownership model, and clarifies how HRM will fully recoup its annual contribution with the potential for profit sharing.

"Since submitting our proposal in August 2019, we have been listening to public feedback and concerns of residents, specifically around risk to the municipality," said Anthony LeBlanc, Founding Partner, Schooner Sports and Entertainment.

"An HRM Community Stadium is a game changer for the region. Our revised proposal takes this feedback into consideration and provides HRM with a community stadium proposal that is the best deal for HRM, and, in fact, better than any stadium jurisdiction in North America."

A Community Stadium will contribute to HRM's growth and make our municipality a better place to live and visit. As one of the only Municipalities of its size in North America without a community stadium, Halifax has been talking about the need for a stadium for several decades.

With the CFL Atlantic Schooners franchise ready to come here as the anchor tenant, this is the best and lowest risk opportunity for Halifax to get the stadium it needs, and the first and only time that the private sector is at the table in a substantial manner, significantly mitigating the risk to HRM.

Key elements of the amended proposal are below.

Mitigating HRM's Risk and Economic Benefits

SSE to contribute tens of millions of dollars directly to Stadium Construction
SSE will fund all ongoing Capital expenses
SSE will take on all operational expenses, regardless of ownership structure
SSE to repay HRM's FULL annual contribution
HRM to share in excess surcharge profit, forecasted to be hundreds of thousands in annual revenue
Thousand of jobs created
Millions of dollars in tax revenues

HRM to decide who owns the stadium

SSE welcomes a Stadium ownership model that is acceptable to HRM and by no means insists on SSE owning the facility. However, SSE understands and accepts that the ownership model must ensure HRM bears no operational risk.

Tax Incremental Financing

While a Tax Increment Financing (TIF) districts is proposed to be created around the stadium area, HRM is in full control of what would be a part of this district. And more importantly, if the TIF district is delayed or is never created, HRM will not be left on the hook, thanks to the implementation of the ticket surcharge to cover any TIF shortages, if any.

Unprecedented commitment to HRM youth and community initiatives

SSE will reward student achievement by donating hundreds of tickets to each home game for qualifying successful students.
A charitable foundation will raise hundreds of thousands of dollars per year to support programs that support boys and girls across Nova Scotia to overcome the current barriers to fair and accessible sport and recreation opportunities.

HRM Community Stadium - Much more than just football

24,000+ total capacity
Inflatable winter sports dome
Local Sports and Entertainment Stakeholder Supporters such as Sport Nova Scotia are on board
300+ days a year for community sport and recreation use
10 CFL Home games (pre season and regular season) per year plus playoffs (6,000 season ticket deposits sold already)
1-2 major stadium concerts per year
A number of smaller, amphitheater style concerts, as well as the potential for multi day festival style concert events
Minimum of one Grey Cup every 10 years - The 2018 Grey Cup hosted in Edmonton had a total economic impact of more than $81 million
Potential to host NHL outdoor games such as the recent 2019 Heritage Classic in Regina - Initial reports indicate a $15-$20 million economic impact for Regina
*************************

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by someone123

The CWGs fizzled after the budget ballooned from something like $700M up to north of $1B, years ago. Total cost of the Pan Am games of which the Hamilton stadium was a part was approximately $2.5B. Just the security budget of a major sporting event would be more than a new stadium for Halifax these days.

Ah jeez, so we had to bring up the Commonwealth Games. I still consider the CWG fiasco to be a great humiliation for this city, and its stench still lingers over the SSE stadium proposal.

(Not everyone agrees of course. There were many who celebrated the sinking of the CWG just as they will celebrate the demise of SSE. I know, because my wife, who has spent her career in the field, is one of them. Not that she opposes public spending on sport and rec -- far from it -- but her focus is on broad access, not on pro or elite amateur athletics. I just happen to think they go hand in hand.)

The CWG bid was sunk by the ineptitude of its backers and the cowardice of HRM council. (In the words of councillor Sue Uteck: "No vision, no passion, no leadership".)

The final price tag for the games was estimated, at the time it was killed (without a vote of council) by then-mayor Peter Kelly and the province, at $1.7 billion. It's hard to argue that wasn't too rich. Even worse, chair Fred MacGillivray and the bid committee utterly failed at transparency and communication. They did nothing to build public support and enthusiasm for the bid, leaving critics to go mostly unchallenged. In my view, we are seeing history repeat itself with the current stadium bid: SSE's communication with stakeholders has been abysmal and they have squandered almost every opportunity to build community support.

For the record, after Halifax dropped out of contention for the 2014 games, the games went to Glasgow, Scotland, where they were widely considered to be a success. Glasgow's budget for the games was £575.6 million (about $836 million CAD), including £90 million for security. Over £100 million came from ticket sales and commercial revenues; the rest from governments. The games came in £25 million under budget, money that was redirected to the National Health Service.

Glasgow didn't need a stadium -- they already had three, all over 50,000 seats -- but they did build two arenas, a velodrome and a playing field and expanded a swimming pool and other existing facilities. They also built an athlete's village to house 8000 people, which has since been turned into affordable housing.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by someone123

Halifax would spend more local dollars to host the typical major sporting event than it would if it simply built the stadium on its own, and even more than the current proposal.

The CWGs fizzled after the budget ballooned from something like $700M up to north of $1B, years ago. Total cost of the Pan Am games of which the Hamilton stadium was a part was approximately $2.5B. Just the security budget of a major sporting event would be more than a new stadium for Halifax these days.

I know, I'm just saying if THF and BMO are going to be used as examples of stadiums with federal funds as part of their financing, there were international events attached to those stadiums as part of the reasons they were built.

[JHikka]

SSE to contribute tens of millions of dollars directly to Stadium Construction
SSE will fund all ongoing Capital expenses
SSE will take on all operational expenses, regardless of ownership structure
SSE to repay HRM's FULL annual contribution
HRM to share in excess surcharge profit, forecasted to be hundreds of thousands in annual revenue
Thousand of jobs created
Millions of dollars in tax revenues

I don't believe SSE has the funding for much of this and without any actual numbers this still means little to nothing. Feels like creeping desperation.

I also find it difficult to believe they've received assurance from the CFL re: a minimum of one GC every ten years. As well, saying there's potential for an NHL game is the same as saying there's potential to host bocce ball or jai alai. Of course there's potential to host these things - what's lacking is an actual commitment from any outside party.

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I know, I'm just saying if THF and BMO are going to be used as examples of stadiums with federal funds as part of their financing, there were international events attached to those stadiums as part of the reasons they were built.

Indeed. The precedence has been that federal funding will be provided for stadiums which are initially hosting international events.

[Colin May]

" The Scottish Government and Glasgow City Council were the main funding providers, committing up to £382 million and £80 million respectively, around 80 per cent of the total Games budget"
https://www.audit-scotland.gov.uk/do...ames_third.pdf

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I don't believe SSE has the funding for much of this and without any actual numbers this still means little to nothing. Feels like creeping desperation.

I would agree with this. I think they came to the realization that without significant concessions to their original proposal, that the jig was up, at least with the present HRM council.

Do they have the private funding to pull off their new proposed funding model? I kinda doubt this. I imagine though that they felt they had no choice but to throw a "Hail Mary" and see what happens.

Personally, I think it's time to take a step back and maybe begin all over again, perhaps even revisiting exactly where in HRM the stadium should be built. If a peninsular location were chosen, could they find other partners to develop ancillary proposals to make a more appealing package for a new (more receptive) HRM council to consider in a couple of years time.

It might make more sense to take your time and come up with a proposal too good for HRM to resist.........

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

In my view, we are seeing history repeat itself with the current stadium bid: SSE's communication with stakeholders has been abysmal and they have squandered almost every opportunity to build community support.

I agree with this too.

I wonder why this happens? Maybe the backers are too caught up in making business-style deals with politicians like the mayor. While politicians will sometimes push for what they want, it is much easier for them to follow public opinion than shape it or go against the will of the public. And it is easiest to build public enthusiasm on an emotional level based on the value and prestige associated with the project, not dollars and cents type arguments. The people who are anti-stadium when HRM is asked for $120M are generally not going to change their mind because the price tag drops to $105M or $90M.

[Keith P.]

I think the only way HRM will be able to get a stadium is via some international amateur sporting event that the Feds can get behind with a big bag of our tax money. But we don't need a grand CWG/PanAm games style of facility. Maybe some sort of soccer, rugby, lacrosse or similar event that might get us one with 10,000 seats or so.

[Colin May]

The devil is in the details, and this proposal omits a vital element : The directors/owners of SSE are not liable for any financial problems. SSE is on the hook and the directors can allow SSE to enter bankruptcy and with no tangible assets the obligations will fall directly upon HRM. The owners and directors of SSE will not provide personal guarantees.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

I agree with this too.

I wonder why this happens?

Because SSE probably feels that going to meetings with politicians is easier than taking the time to generate grassroots support. They're lacking patience and local support. The complete lack of community-based events and support should speak volumes over the quantity and quality of work that SSE has completed in the past year and a half.

Originally Posted by Keith P.

But we don't need a grand CWG/PanAm games style of facility. Maybe some sort of soccer, rugby, lacrosse or similar event that might get us one with 10,000 seats or so.

This already exists at Wanderers Grounds.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by JHikka

This already exists at Wanderers Grounds.

That's not a stadium, and I don't think it has much more than 5000 seats IIRC.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

That's not a stadium, and I don't think it has much more than 5000 seats IIRC.

What would you consider not a CWF/PanAm facility then? That's your quote that i'm working off of. It's a field with some stands which makes it a stadium in my eyes.

Wanderers holds 6.2K with ability to expand up to 10K in the future.

[elly63]

Isn't the Wanderer's "stadium" temporary and has to be disassembled every year?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by JHikka

What would you consider not a CWF/PanAm facility then? That's your quote that i'm working off of. It's a field with some stands which makes it a stadium in my eyes.

Wanderers holds 6.2K with ability to expand up to 10K in the future.

A stadium would include parking lots, permanent seating, high-intensity lighting, with structures for dressing rooms, broadcasting, concessions, washrooms, etc. It is not a bunch of erector-set grandstands and Kent trailers.

[Djeffery]

What does 10,000 seats gain you though? You can probably replicate what the Huskies have for under $10million, have a couple thousand seats, for the high school championships and whatever other local events, and still put the winter bubble over the field. I mean, if you aren't going to build it with the intent of a CFL team, then there is no point than anything larger than that because the CFL is the only thing that will be filling up the seats on a regular basis.

[someone123]

Here is the revised proposal document:

https://www.halifax.ca/sites/default...edium=referral

It's hard to tell exactly what the terms are from this document. My impression is that the stadium price tag is around $100M and land acquisition and other comparatively small costs go on top of that, bringing the total to around $110-130M. I guess HRM is expected to pay this up front. The document says that SSE will pay $1M per year for 30 years. They also agree to impose a $10 a ticket surcharge if HRM does not make the increased tax revenues that SSE predicts will happen due to nearby development.

They used to talk about paying to build some of the seating. Is that on top of these other payments?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

What does 10,000 seats gain you though? You can probably replicate what the Huskies have for under $10million, have a couple thousand seats, for the high school championships and whatever other local events, and still put the winter bubble over the field. I mean, if you aren't going to build it with the intent of a CFL team, then there is no point than anything larger than that because the CFL is the only thing that will be filling up the seats on a regular basis.

I am having a hard time squaring this type of sentiment with a few realities:

- HRM has bid on major one-off sporting events in the past that included a stadium when there was no guarantee of a CFL team and they were widely supported until the budget hugely exceeded that of the current stadium proposal. Why were those proposals better than a much more affordable proposal focused on building durable infrastructure with a primary tenant already lined up? How on earth could it be that 2005 Halifax almost ran $700M+ CWGs while a $130M stadium is beyond the pale in 2019 Halifax?

- Virtually every city on this planet with a population and economy like Halifax's has an outdoor sport or performance venue capable of holding well over 10,000 people. Hardly any of these were built purely with private sector pro sports dollars, and it is completely unrealistic to expect that to happen in Halifax. Why is normal infrastructure in most cities considered an extravagance in Halifax?

- Halifax has hosted many outdoor concerts and events in the past that would have been better in a stadium rather than on a grassy field like the Common. Presumably if there were a decent venue there would be more of these events. So why do people keep saying this will only be for the CFL?

I think it's a bit messed up that this is being framed as a failure for the CFL promoters to pay more for a stadium rather than an opportunity for HRM that is unlikely to happen again for many years if the current council passes on it. It reminds me of a certain comment from Stephen Harper that rattled a few cages but had more than a kernel of truth to it.

[elly63]

^Amen

[elly63]

I know it's like apples and oranges but I just finished watching the CFL Western final take place in the best stadium in the country, that's 10k seats bigger than anything being considered here, costing nearly $200 million more, in a market more than half the size of Halifax. People can criticize the Schooners ownership group all they want, but most of this lies on Halifax's can't do attitude. The best they can do are some temp bleachers in a public park, totally disgraceful.